Hi all,
Are there any Drill commands or movements known to be authentic 15th Century or are the commands used by the various groups made up or copied from later periods?
Mark.
WotR drill
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There are pretty much 2 sets of drill commands used by different groups. One set is based on ECW commands.
The other set is based on contemporary sources. Most come from Mallory, (such as overthwart and 'thrang' even) and are contemporary terms used to describe how soldiers moved, but still are essentially 'made up' as drill commands. It was all done many moons ago by Evan Barton (now in the US), to be an improvement on the ECW ones. I have the full list and their sources somewhere, but haven't looked at it for years.
Whether there's any evidence for drill of this kind at all is another matter. The use of hunting horn calls may be the next step towards improvement.
The other set is based on contemporary sources. Most come from Mallory, (such as overthwart and 'thrang' even) and are contemporary terms used to describe how soldiers moved, but still are essentially 'made up' as drill commands. It was all done many moons ago by Evan Barton (now in the US), to be an improvement on the ECW ones. I have the full list and their sources somewhere, but haven't looked at it for years.
Whether there's any evidence for drill of this kind at all is another matter. The use of hunting horn calls may be the next step towards improvement.
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StaffordCleggy
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The commands that we use are Mallory's.
However, we don't 'know' in any concrete way how troops were drilled, or even if they were at all.
Horns for various commands would be good, but a little suggestion if i may....
THAT THE DAMNED HORN PLAYERS LEARN THEIR INSTRUMENTS BEFORE COMING ANYWHERE NEAR CIVILISATION!!!!!
However, we don't 'know' in any concrete way how troops were drilled, or even if they were at all.
Horns for various commands would be good, but a little suggestion if i may....
THAT THE DAMNED HORN PLAYERS LEARN THEIR INSTRUMENTS BEFORE COMING ANYWHERE NEAR CIVILISATION!!!!!
StaffordCleggy wrote:The commands that we use are Mallory's.
However, we don't 'know' in any concrete way how troops were drilled, or even if they were at all.
Horns for various commands would be good, but a little suggestion if i may....
THAT THE DAMNED HORN PLAYERS LEARN THEIR INSTRUMENTS BEFORE COMING ANYWHERE NEAR CIVILISATION!!!!!
One of my pointers is in image from the Hausbuch which shows a column of warwagons being led by horsemen with trumpets, one of whom is looking back to the column giving a blast (no Fletch!)
die Behmen hinder iren bafosen ... stunden vest wie die mauren
StaffordCleggy wrote:The commands that we use are Mallory's.
However, we don't 'know' in any concrete way how troops were drilled, or even if they were at all.
Horns for various commands would be good, but a little suggestion if i may....
THAT THE DAMNED HORN PLAYERS LEARN THEIR INSTRUMENTS BEFORE COMING ANYWHERE NEAR CIVILISATION!!!!!
Hi Cleggy,
Have you got or know where I can find a list of these commands?
I'm sure that in an age where your life depends on your formation that Drilling and manoeuvering would be as important as training at Skill at Arms. I've done "Tap drill" before. This is where instead of words of command, the Squad commander taps his Pace Stick on the ground. The number of taps equals a Command...I suppose a similar thing could be done with a Drum.
Cheers,
Mark.
Horns appear quite often as I recall in contemporary artwork - hunting calls would be audible over the clamour (well - more audible than most things) and recognisable to many of the men - hunting was a more common activity for the households than war after all.
Get those horns out and get practising I say
But yes - don't come onto the field until you know what you're doing!!
Get those horns out and get practising I say
But yes - don't come onto the field until you know what you're doing!!
KDF Nottingham
"Oh, but you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you!"
"Oh, but you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you!"
Last time this subject came up someone (mr G23b?) came up with some compelling sources suggesting that the english did not drill in WOTR and tended to be a bit of a rabble. Of course we do know that they were keen on training games though
Find time in every day to look at your life and say; 'Well, it could be worse'
Kurt's uncle Bob.
Kurt's uncle Bob.
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StaffordCleggy
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Oh God, it's going to get noisy next season isn't it! 
Mark,
The commands the Staffs use are:-
Stand - bill on the ground in your right hand.
Carry - lift bill into the VERTICAL carrying position in your right hand
Knee Bend - walk forward.
Face To Me - The Captain will stand where he wants us to face
Avantraid(sp?) - advance the bill into the attack position
Thrang - thrust with the bill
Overthwart - bill across your chest in the 'port-arms' position
Form Ray On Me - The Captain will stand where the ray(s) are wanted
Face About - Turn on your bill shaft
Form Chiltrom On Me - Form defensive 'circle' on the Captain
That's about it, left & right are not used as it is believed that simple men might not know what they are.
To be honest, we don't know if WoTR troops used drill, but we strongly suspect that simple drill commands as above would have been used to form 'drafted' men into simple & commandable units.
The Nobility & Mercenary Captains were not stupid men. The education of the Nobility (men) included the works of Tacitus & Vegetius so they were well versed in the classsical thoughts of warfare & strategy, training of the men will have been part of this education.
However, the fact that 'Household' men aside, most troops were rapidly raised at the last moment due to financial constraints on the part of the Noble meant that proper drill training would have been limited at best. Therefore the effectiveness of any drill training is dubious & open to question.
Mark,
The commands the Staffs use are:-
Stand - bill on the ground in your right hand.
Carry - lift bill into the VERTICAL carrying position in your right hand
Knee Bend - walk forward.
Face To Me - The Captain will stand where he wants us to face
Avantraid(sp?) - advance the bill into the attack position
Thrang - thrust with the bill
Overthwart - bill across your chest in the 'port-arms' position
Form Ray On Me - The Captain will stand where the ray(s) are wanted
Face About - Turn on your bill shaft
Form Chiltrom On Me - Form defensive 'circle' on the Captain
That's about it, left & right are not used as it is believed that simple men might not know what they are.
To be honest, we don't know if WoTR troops used drill, but we strongly suspect that simple drill commands as above would have been used to form 'drafted' men into simple & commandable units.
The Nobility & Mercenary Captains were not stupid men. The education of the Nobility (men) included the works of Tacitus & Vegetius so they were well versed in the classsical thoughts of warfare & strategy, training of the men will have been part of this education.
However, the fact that 'Household' men aside, most troops were rapidly raised at the last moment due to financial constraints on the part of the Noble meant that proper drill training would have been limited at best. Therefore the effectiveness of any drill training is dubious & open to question.
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StaffordCleggy
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- Location: Rochdale
Sounds likely to me, although etymology & semantics are a barren field to me, i have enough trouble with modern English!
Forgot a couple :-
Shoulder - bill over the shoulder as you would carry a rifle.
Used for distance marches where 'carry' would be a hindrance
Trail - bill held down to the right & trailed along the ground. used when pasing under low obstacles such as trees & gates etc.
Forgot a couple :-
Shoulder - bill over the shoulder as you would carry a rifle.
Used for distance marches where 'carry' would be a hindrance
Trail - bill held down to the right & trailed along the ground. used when pasing under low obstacles such as trees & gates etc.
1. Prepare - Hack
a. Prepare - raise the polearm over your left shoulder with the head tilted back as if preparing to chop
b. Hack - bring it down to aventryd like an axe
2. Retryd - retreat in good order
3. Alternatives used by the Saviles amongst others
"About yer *rse" - about face
"Leg stretch" - general march on, "Knee bend" being used when you are at aventryd
4. Thomas Stanleys amongst others use "charge your staves" which I think is the same as aventryd
5. Disarray - b**ger off, I want a beer
Aventryd comes from "Le Morte D'Arthur" by Mallory
I'm seeing Allan tomorrow Cleggy - shall I mention that you need some intensive drill?
(Good luck against the evil Tigers this weekend by the way
)
a. Prepare - raise the polearm over your left shoulder with the head tilted back as if preparing to chop
b. Hack - bring it down to aventryd like an axe
2. Retryd - retreat in good order
3. Alternatives used by the Saviles amongst others
"About yer *rse" - about face
"Leg stretch" - general march on, "Knee bend" being used when you are at aventryd
4. Thomas Stanleys amongst others use "charge your staves" which I think is the same as aventryd
5. Disarray - b**ger off, I want a beer
Aventryd comes from "Le Morte D'Arthur" by Mallory
And so they aventryd their spears and came marvellously fast together, and they smote each other in the shields, but their spears and their course were so big that it bare down horse and man, that they lay both in a swoon.
I'm seeing Allan tomorrow Cleggy - shall I mention that you need some intensive drill?
(Good luck against the evil Tigers this weekend by the way
)
Last edited by craig1459 on Sat Sep 02, 2006 2:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
die Behmen hinder iren bafosen ... stunden vest wie die mauren
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StaffordCleggy
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craig1459 wrote:(Good luck against the evil Tigers this weekend by the way
Hope thats not the glorious Leicester Tigers being referred to???
We're playing some team from Sale tomorrow
We shall all be shouting on the Tigers..I hope we have better luck than two seasons ago..My daughter (openside Flanker for Leicester Forest & the East Midlands) and I travelled to the first game of the season at Sale Sharks Edgeley Park ground and we lost!
Hoping for a better result tomorrow
Mark.
COME ON TIGERS!
[CUBA]I'm a Bath fan (lived there 91-98 ) and have a healthy dislike for the team down the road from here - my number one bete noire, even more so than Glaaaaaster! I go to Welford and support the opposition (well the Ospreys when they played thm last season ) SAAAALE! [/CUBA]
) SAAAALE! [/CUBA]
Last edited by craig1459 on Sat Sep 02, 2006 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
die Behmen hinder iren bafosen ... stunden vest wie die mauren
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StaffordCleggy
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- Location: Rochdale
Aye, that'll be the 'Big Fish 05/06' versus the Pusscats then tomorrow at 16:00
Did you go to the Final Mark? A friends daughter led the Sale team out as mascot, although i could only just make her out from our seats way up in the Gods!
Nev came with us - one green shirt in a sea of Blue - he started to cry when Varndell threw the ball into row B & gave up when Chris Mayor intercepted the ball in our 22 & ran the length to score.....
'Almost' felt sorry for him!
Did you go to the Final Mark? A friends daughter led the Sale team out as mascot, although i could only just make her out from our seats way up in the Gods!
Nev came with us - one green shirt in a sea of Blue - he started to cry when Varndell threw the ball into row B & gave up when Chris Mayor intercepted the ball in our 22 & ran the length to score.....
'Almost' felt sorry for him!
Mark wrote:Craig/Cleggy,
Cheers for the info..The shoulder and the Trail are familiar to me from Rifle drill..
Form Ray On Me - The Captain will stand where the ray(s) are wanted
What are Ray(s)??
Mark.
A line - the captain often holds his polearm horizontal in front of him to indicate where
die Behmen hinder iren bafosen ... stunden vest wie die mauren
Hi Cleggy/Craig,
I wasn't at the Final but we were Season Ticket holders at the time..My daughter pestered for one this year but we shall go whenever we can..unfortunately unlike "ahem" other teams etc Welford Road is often sold out ages before the game..The only chance of getting tickets is when the opposition return part of their quota! Our development team games attract 10-11000 on a Monday night..
Mark.
COME ON TIGERS
I wasn't at the Final but we were Season Ticket holders at the time..My daughter pestered for one this year but we shall go whenever we can..unfortunately unlike "ahem" other teams etc Welford Road is often sold out ages before the game..The only chance of getting tickets is when the opposition return part of their quota! Our development team games attract 10-11000 on a Monday night..
Mark.
COME ON TIGERS
craig1459 wrote:Mark wrote:Craig/Cleggy,
Cheers for the info..The shoulder and the Trail are familiar to me from Rifle drill..
Form Ray On Me - The Captain will stand where the ray(s) are wanted
What are Ray(s)??
Mark.
A line - the captain often holds his polearm horizontal in front of him to indicate where
Cheers Craig,
Thats a new one on me..I suppose a ray of sunlight means just the same thing..or for you Droogs and Arthur Dents... a Raygun.
and yes I admit it I'd never heard of a Droog or Arthur Dent! but I'm just a Country boy..
Mark.
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StaffordCleggy
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Mark,
As a supporter of one of those 'other teams' we have gone from an average attendance of 1000+ at Heywood Rd to 10'000 at Edgeley Park in 5 yrs, we now have more season ticket holders than the max. capacity at Heywood Rd.
We still have a long way to go before we can even begin to rival the Tigers for their level of support - although we did completely outsing & outshout the Tigers fans at HQ back in May.....
What part of the modern military were you part of?
As a supporter of one of those 'other teams'
we have gone from an average attendance of 1000+ at Heywood Rd to 10'000 at Edgeley Park in 5 yrs, we now have more season ticket holders than the max. capacity at Heywood Rd.
We still have a long way to go before we can even begin to rival the Tigers for their level of support - although we did completely outsing & outshout the Tigers fans at HQ back in May.....
What part of the modern military were you part of?
Hi Cleggy,
Sale have come on no end in the past couple of years especially with monsters like Chabal in the pack..I enjoyed my visit to Edgeley park except for trying to park the car..
The atmosphere at Welford Rd is exceptional..much better than over the Road at Leicester City FC! Very friendly ..no shouting during kicks (by any team) That reminds me of something I didn't like at Sale..Every time Andy Goode was about to have a kick at goal the commentator would speak on the tannoy something like.."Charlie Hodgson is sponsored by..blah,blah" deliberate putting off, but they got away with it so thats that.
Its anyones guess for the title these days and I'm thinking Worcester might be a team to watch.
I served Nine years as a regular in The Royal Corps of Transport (RCT) Mostly in Germany but also three excellent years at The School of Infantry in Warminster,Wilts Two Gulf tours and one Northern Ireland. In the 90's I served a few years TA with the Royal Anglian Regt and later the Royal Logistics Corps..Seems so long ago that it feels like it was in a different lifetime!
See you soon,
Mark.
Sale have come on no end in the past couple of years especially with monsters like Chabal in the pack..I enjoyed my visit to Edgeley park except for trying to park the car..
The atmosphere at Welford Rd is exceptional..much better than over the Road at Leicester City FC! Very friendly ..no shouting during kicks (by any team) That reminds me of something I didn't like at Sale..Every time Andy Goode was about to have a kick at goal the commentator would speak on the tannoy something like.."Charlie Hodgson is sponsored by..blah,blah" deliberate putting off, but they got away with it so thats that.
Its anyones guess for the title these days and I'm thinking Worcester might be a team to watch.
I served Nine years as a regular in The Royal Corps of Transport (RCT) Mostly in Germany but also three excellent years at The School of Infantry in Warminster,Wilts Two Gulf tours and one Northern Ireland. In the 90's I served a few years TA with the Royal Anglian Regt and later the Royal Logistics Corps..Seems so long ago that it feels like it was in a different lifetime!
See you soon,
Mark.
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StaffordCleggy
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- Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2006 7:25 pm
- Location: Rochdale
Oh well.
I suppose an opening game win at Welford Rd was a little too much to expect - is the Tigers after all!
Didn't see the game (at a birthday party in Stafford) but it sounds like a fair result, see spreaders is up to his usual reffing standards again...
Both teams sounded like they played some good football, so it could be a cracking season from these two, just hope Chabal gets his mojo on again, bit off-colour i hear today.
From an English perspective, Charlie Hodgson set out his stall for the No10 shirt, those who think JW will stroll back into that position are living on fantasy island, let's see how he does in the GP first.
Mark, will you be bringing the family to Blore, or are you being allowed to play out on your own?
I suppose an opening game win at Welford Rd was a little too much to expect - is the Tigers after all!
Didn't see the game (at a birthday party in Stafford) but it sounds like a fair result, see spreaders is up to his usual reffing standards again...
Both teams sounded like they played some good football, so it could be a cracking season from these two, just hope Chabal gets his mojo on again, bit off-colour i hear today.
From an English perspective, Charlie Hodgson set out his stall for the No10 shirt, those who think JW will stroll back into that position are living on fantasy island, let's see how he does in the GP first.
Mark, will you be bringing the family to Blore, or are you being allowed to play out on your own?
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