On cuffs

lidimy · Post by **lidimy** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 12:54 pm

Soo... cuffs! As in, these cuffs:

Can anyone help explain what's going on here? Is it piping?

Also, seeing as they're evidently designed to be turned back, would it correct to have some fancy lining on that part? Like silk? Or is this not done?

Thanks as ever

steve stanley · Post by **steve stanley** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 6:43 pm

More to the point.....What's he doing with his left hand....?
Steve

Bogwoppit · Post by **Bogwoppit** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 7:00 pm

Not that I know anything about frocks, but I would say that it's meant to portray said fancy lining myself...

seamsmistress · Post by **seamsmistress** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 8:03 pm

I think it is probably a contrast/fancy lining, especially as when worn turned up, only the lining wll show at the cuff edge and not the outer stuff of the sleeve. Worn down, it provides a neat decorative finish to the cuff edge too - best of all worlds.

lidimy · Post by **lidimy** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 8:19 pm

Ahh OK... so the lining is cut a little too big then kinda ironed over to make the edge?

Steve.. best left unsaid!

BTW what's the view on green/gold silk with red silk? I know that they liked clashy colours but I don't want to look like Christmas

I just love green and red together! Advice please!

Annis · Post by **Annis** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 8:33 pm

IM(Honest)O, I wouldn't use another silk - it would be far too much (imagine if my green wool was silk as well as my forepart!

). Why not go for something a little less fancy like a fine linen, or wool.

lidimy · Post by **lidimy** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 9:11 pm

Well.. it'll just be a tiny weeny bit, literally just on the end of the cuffs. Not a huge bit, and not always on show anyway, just a 'hint' of red (any more would make me look like a slut methinks)

Zachos · Post by **Zachos** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 10:49 pm

We've finally decided that my red gown will be lined in the same green silk your gown is made of. A deep red looks really good with it.

seamsmistress · Post by **seamsmistress** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 12:23 am

You're right, red and green do look good together. However, unless you're using red somewhere else in the outfit to balance it, I'd avoid it. Also, you're greeny goldy silk might be difficult to find a pleasing red contrast.

What about using something in the gold tones, possilby silk or velvet? Or maybe a green and gold/black brocade, which would add a bit of dash and increase the decorative allure. I seem to recall you were going to embroider around the bottom front opening - will that be in gold?

As to the rolled edge. It depends on how much you want to see, but assuming half an inch and using half inch seam allowance, cut the lining 1" longer. This should then give you a perfect half inch finish.

Bogwoppit · Post by **Bogwoppit** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 10:18 am

seamsmistress wrote:I think it is probably a contrast/fancy lining, especially as when worn turned up, only the lining wll show at the cuff edge and not the outer stuff of the sleeve. Worn down, it provides a neat decorative finish to the cuff edge too - best of all worlds.

I was right???? Go me!!

I think red and green look gorgeous together, especially that goldy green you've shown there. I would probably do the cuffs as you say, and then perhaps just the lacing or... don't know what it's called bit the waisty belty lacy bit if you have one?

lidimy · Post by **lidimy** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 3:13 pm

seamsmistress wrote:You're right, red and green do look good together. However, unless you're using red somewhere else in the outfit to balance it, I'd avoid it. Also, you're greeny goldy silk might be difficult to find a pleasing red contrast.

What about using something in the gold tones, possilby silk or velvet? Or maybe a green and gold/black brocade, which would add a bit of dash and increase the decorative allure. I seem to recall you were going to embroider around the bottom front opening - will that be in gold?

As to the rolled edge. It depends on how much you want to see, but assuming half an inch and using half inch seam allowance, cut the lining 1" longer. This should then give you a perfect half inch finish.

Well... I have 0.5m of red silk with a blacky bit to it (is this called 'shot?

) which I bought in a sudden thrill of fabricyness because I had a £10 John Lewis voucher

But I'm not sure how that will go. More piccies methinks, I have a very bad eye for colour...!
The braidy bit is in gold, yes, not a garish bright gold but more bronzey, if that makes sense. Gini where else would you suggest 'balancing' the red? There's only so and so much space to cram colour into y'see!

I want some velvet trim for the bit at the bottom of her dress but I don't know what colour that should be either until I've sorted out the cuffs and the panel behind the lacing

SOMEHOW they'll all need to match!

The lacing braid will be in black, BTW. Seemed a safe colour that I don't need to worry about!

Please keep suggestions coming.. I don't want to look like a paintbox!

I knew you'd come round, Zac!

what shade of red is your gown?

Annis · Post by **Annis** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 4:05 pm

Yes, it's called shot.

How about using some to make a girdle?

seamsmistress · Post by **seamsmistress** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 7:14 pm

If you're using black for the lacing, the red shot black could look okay as the panel behind the lacing. or, as annis suggested, perhaps used to make a girdle? Or, if there is enough, cut into strips to make the trim at the hem.

If you're set on velvet trim at the bottom then either black or a coppery gold could work well.

Your lady has her skirts hitched up showing the underkirtle, and I'm not at all sure wether the line around her neck is jewellry or the neckline of the gown beneath. If it is a neckline, then would you need a panel behind the lacing, as that function is served by the underkirtle? What colour do you have planned for that? It might help you answer the question as to the colour of the cuffs and trim at the hem of the outer gown.

We definitely need a pic of the red against the green if you want our thoughts on whether it goes or not

lidimy · Post by **lidimy** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:34 pm

Well.. Marcus W who gave me the piccy with some background info in the first place said that Savoyard ladies didn't wear girdles as much as others so I'm not sure about that.

Annis I should have bought that belt at Kelmarsh shouldn't I?

Gini I decided that the black line was a necklace, perhaps that decision was aided by convenience but visualising another garment underneath didn't seem aesthetically pleasing, a bit too patchy colour wise unless it was a decorative smock of sorts.

D'you think the red silk would work under the lacing? I'll get some piccies. I was just thinking of Annis's OTT on the silk comment. I mean, I want it to loo kas fabulously luxurious as possible (not often one comes across a project like that!) so I want to really go for it wherever possible!

For the time being, here's a piccy of the braid that'll go round the opening.

frances · Post by **frances** » Tue Sep 09, 2008 12:30 am

OOooo that is a nice braid!!

Lidi, I think that the line around the neck is not a necklace, but the top of the chemise or a high-necked under-dress. Otherwise I think there would be a line above the lacing to indicate the top of the panel underneath.

I agree that the turnback shows a fancy lining. It was OK to have different fabrics in the same outfit - you probably had what you could get hold of, or what you were given as a present. Today we like to wear tones of the same colour, but then they wore contrasting and clashing colours. But do be careful about mixing too many bright colours together, particularly if they are 'shot'; it can look very 'Hollywood'. The memorial brasses and paintings often show different brocades worn together.

frances · Post by **frances** » Tue Sep 09, 2008 12:35 am

What is he doing with his left hand?

He is holding down the deep pleats of his short gown so that it does not fly up into his ladies face as he dances around. Look you can see the back is flying out, which indicates movement.

lidimy · Post by **lidimy** » Tue Sep 09, 2008 8:31 am

frances wrote:OOooo that is a nice braid!!

Lidi, I think that the line around the neck is not a necklace, but the top of the chemise or a high-necked under-dress. Otherwise I think there would be a line above the lacing to indicate the top of the panel underneath.

I agree that the turnback shows a fancy lining. It was OK to have different fabrics in the same outfit - you probably had what you could get hold of, or what you were given as a present. Today we like to wear tones of the same colour, but then they wore contrasting and clashing colours. But do be careful about mixing too many bright colours together, particularly if they are 'shot'; it can look very 'Hollywood'. The memorial brasses and paintings often show different brocades worn together.

It IS nice braid isn't it

and you think it's a chemise of sorts? hmmm.... well, I guess that calls for the purchase of super-fine white linen. Harumph.

What kind of colours would you suggest for the cuffs then, Frances?

frances · Post by **frances** » Tue Sep 09, 2008 11:02 pm

Dear Lidi,

I seem to be agreeing with seamstress about the neckline area. What are you planning for the underdress? You see now I think about it I am not sure that a lady would be showing huge amounts of 'underwear', which is what a chemise is.

I think it really is two complete dresses, one under the other. At home or maybe on a hot day the lady might dispense with the outer layer and just wear the underdress. When in a more formal situation such as meeting strangers or important people, or going to a dance, she would put the outer dress on top. The lacing would enable her to put it on and off easily over another gown, whatever the fabric. So the underdress could be wool or brocade.

As for your cuff fabric. Well I would go with a brocade everytime. Of course the cuff lining is the lining of the outer dress, so should be the same as what is showing at the hem when the train is lifted off the floor. So you could have a complete lining of the same fabric, or you could cheat and just have half a metre or so at the hemline and from the elbow or lower arm with the expenisve stuff, then have something cheap where it will not show.

As for the colour? Well, I am not sure that you are going to like my answer. I think that the shot green/gold silky stuff is fabulous and would make a wonderful late Victorian reception gown. I have leafed through the medieval fabrics at the V&A - anyone can go to look at them in the study collection. They have loads in racks and you just walk into the room and pull them out. I do not recall having seen any plain shot silk.
(now ducks to avoid flying plates heading in my direction)

lidimy · Post by **lidimy** » Wed Sep 10, 2008 8:51 am

Really?

I'm at school ATM but on my home computer I have a picture of an italian girl whose dress fabric is practically identical to minw. I'll put it up later on.

The under dress I'm wearing leaves a moderate amount of chest showing (there really is no elegant way of saying that is there?

) so it's no where near as high as that diddy little round hole. I was actually hoping to pin an amount of the posh fabric over it (rather than making the whole underdress out of posh fabric, at least until I have more monies....)

Are you sure it would be inappropriate to have cuff lining that wouldn't match the skirt lining?

Because the whole dress is lined in a dark green linen, I hadn't intended to patch the hem together with other bits at all.

And my lack of brocade is a problem.. where would you suggest getting brocade from and what kind of cost would I be looking at?

lidimy · Post by **lidimy** » Wed Sep 10, 2008 8:53 am

Oh my, the wonders of photobucket. Here she is.

seamsmistress · Post by **seamsmistress** » Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:18 pm

Hi Lidi

Gorgeous frock, looks like a watermarked/moire silk. The coral necklace works rather well. My reservation would be that this looks to be late 15th C, whereas the woodcut image appears to be quite a bit earlier?

That aside, I'd agree with francis on the brocade at cuff and would probably choose something gold with green, picking up on the main colour. Or perhaps a dark green velvet. But that's personal choice and it's your dress!

Francis is right in suggesting that the brocade at the cuff suggests the whole gown is lined with the same, but realistically, that would make your lining more costly than the outer stuff!

So a more cost effective solution is to put whatever gorgeousness you finally settle on for the cuffs at the hem lining. Your choice should be informed by where you plan to wear it. If outdoors, then a false hem of something sturdy that can be removed and replaced is the best bet. If indoors, you can go for something more costly that won't wear out or get filthy so fast. Whilst a deep false hem of brocade would look fabulous when lifted [and I agree with authentic here], it's not exactly practical.

The problem, as I see it, is you don't have enough of the red contrast you'd like to use to create an entirely balanced and well thought out outfit, because it would need to be used for cuff and false hem facing. If you used it for the stomacher area on your undergown then ideally you should have a deepish hem of it [say 10"] to the bottom of your undergown and then the cuffs [& hem facing of the outergown] should be of a different stuff.

As to brocade - Quartermasterie are quite reasonable and keep relatively small pieces which might be of use to you - worth giving them a ring and asking if they can help.

lidimy · Post by **lidimy** » Wed Sep 10, 2008 5:55 pm

Here's another piccy, which might be of help. Hopefully maybe.

Her dress is practically the same, headress 'n everything so I've kinda been using it as a reference point too. 'cept she's wearing a belt (eek.. Annis WHY didn't you make me buy that belt?!

)

And she hasn't got a high necked gown underneath. And all the paintings I've seen of that style (though admittedly different countries...

) have straight necklines across the lacing.

narvek · Post by **narvek** » Wed Sep 10, 2008 8:39 pm

Now, that's a nice shield

lidimy · Post by **lidimy** » Wed Sep 10, 2008 9:10 pm

It was a picture sent to me by another boy.. no names mentioned

who despite heavy prompting failed to realise the fact that the lady's gown was basically mine.

Probably didn't realise there was a lady on it at all

Zachos · Post by **Zachos** » Wed Sep 10, 2008 9:16 pm

I noticed there was a lady. Ladies are just as important as armour, and posh shields. If there was no ladies then there would be no-one to show off to.

lidimy · Post by **lidimy** » Wed Sep 10, 2008 9:18 pm

Ah, that clarifies the matter immensely. Fortunately, if there were no men, we likewise would have no reason to wear such lovely clothes.. even if they do go unnoticed

narvek · Post by **narvek** » Wed Sep 10, 2008 9:19 pm

I failed to realise that it's shield

...at begginig..

and Zac: well, there is always a poetry and dance to show off with in front of ladies

lidimy · Post by **lidimy** » Wed Sep 10, 2008 10:09 pm

A much better method than poking each other with pointy sticks!

frances · Post by **frances** » Thu Sep 11, 2008 7:03 pm

Dear Lidi,

Here, again, I agree with seamstress. And can I add that taking an Italian painting as reference for an English outfit is not very, umm, awfentic, is it? Also you have to bear in mind that it is a painting, not a photograph. In my opinion the yellowy tones are to make the painting look more attractive.

Not to labour the point, but bright green came about when the Victorian were able to make chemical dyes, after the 1850's. However, why not consult a medieval dye specialist. It could be that some obscure lichen will get that vivd green colour. If so, you will have even more to talk about when you are wearing it.

Zachos · Post by **Zachos** » Thu Sep 11, 2008 7:43 pm

I've got a book about natural dying. I can bring it to mannington if you want?

The silk doesn't seem unaufentic to me, but then my area of interest is metal shiney things, so wouldn't be able to say exactly.

Lidi has already ran up against the italian picture thing before, but has come to terms with it, and has found loads (literally tonnes) of similar pictures from everywhere. I'm sure she'll fill your hard drive with them if you want her to...