Abbots and Vicars and other men of the cloth in conflict.

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Fox
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Abbots and Vicars and other men of the cloth in conflict.

Postby Fox » Mon May 12, 2008 4:37 pm

I'm just in the process of knocking up a story for this skirmish at Tatton Park.

I'm interested in basing this around the friction between the Abbey at Vale Royal and it's neighbours.

With this in mind, I'm interested in exactly how much men of the cloth participated in armed struggle in the 15thC.

I notice that Abbott Henry Arrowsmith, who having been acquitted of rape, was brutally murdered in 1437; it is recorded that the vicar of Over drove his sword several times through the abbot's throat to make sure that he was dead.

So, how did the Abbey, which was in constant, and as far as I can tell sometimes violent, conflict manage it's forces and what were they?
[More general information would also be welcome]



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Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Mon May 12, 2008 9:32 pm

Abbeys were involved in stealing the relics from other religious sites-though they gave it a posh name which basically meant that the Good Lord decreed that the holy bones of Saint Annemous wanted to be moved in the middle of the night by a bunch of thugs in habits. They also were involved in turf wars over the control of pilgrim traffic. One abbey in Italy got tooled up and went to war with the nearby town that had arrested their abbot after a drunken night of fighting of fornication. His Holiness even experimented with mounted gunners-good old Sixtus.


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Postby behanner » Tue May 13, 2008 12:27 am

What is the date or period that the event is suppose to have taken place?



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Re: Abbots and Vicars and other men of the cloth in conflict

Postby Fox » Tue May 13, 2008 7:22 am

behanner wrote:What is the date or period that the event is suppose to have taken place?


Fox, in his first post, wrote:...in 1437...


The show is deliberately non-date specific 15thC-ish.



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Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Fri May 16, 2008 8:36 pm

There was a priest who ran a outlaw gang until the local sheriff burst in during a service dragged him out and had him beheaded, I'll look out where that was, there was another place where the monks burst into the parish church dress ed armour under their habits and abducted a load of women during a row with the nearby town-again I'll find out where that was (and when), and the "holy"men of Oxford and Cambridge were always rioting amonsgst themselves and the townies.


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Postby The Methley Archer » Sat May 17, 2008 8:22 am

Marcus, beat you to it. :D

The priest was called Richard Folville and the incident happened in the village of Teigh, Rutland in 1340. As it happened the gang was held in some esteme as when the remaining members were taken to trail they were aqquited and the justice of the peace had to do pennance :!: doesn't sound as if much has changed.

The other event occured in Bury St Edmunds in 1327.


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Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Sat May 17, 2008 6:13 pm

Damn but you're good. But what about Henry Dispencer the battlin' Bishop of Norfolk!


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Re: Abbots and Vicars and other men of the cloth in conflict

Postby behanner » Sat May 17, 2008 6:41 pm

Fox wrote:
behanner wrote:What is the date or period that the event is suppose to have taken place?


Fox, in his first post, wrote:...in 1437...


The show is deliberately non-date specific 15thC-ish.


Ok, I wasn't sure because it looked like by your website at it looked geared towards earlier and since I'm in the US I don't tend to pay much attention to which events, groups or people do what.

How many combatants are you expecting?



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Postby The Methley Archer » Sat May 17, 2008 8:19 pm

Hang on Marcus, this will take longer. I haven't just read about him last week but his name rings a bell :D :!:


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Re: Abbots and Vicars and other men of the cloth in conflict

Postby Fox » Mon May 19, 2008 1:46 pm

behanner wrote:Ok, I wasn't sure because it looked like by your website at it looked geared towards earlier and since I'm in the US I don't tend to pay much attention to which events, groups or people do what.

How many combatants are you expecting?


It's not my website and I am not a member of Plantagenet Events.



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Postby behanner » Mon May 19, 2008 2:33 pm

I was refering to this site linked on your profile.
http://www.st.dysmas.faithweb.com/ which I thought was there but appears to be gone so maybe I just imagined it.



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Postby guthrie » Mon May 19, 2008 3:10 pm

Behanner-- Fox is organising the battle, but not the event. Which website do you mean? The St Dysmas one is the website of the group Fox belongs to, it is not his personal one.



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Postby behanner » Mon May 19, 2008 3:13 pm

I was refering to his group. I wasn't sure that just because he was refering to an incident in the 1430s that he was looking for something in the 15th century. Been reading a book on later-15th century Cheshire last few days.



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Postby Fox » Mon May 19, 2008 3:32 pm

behanner wrote:I was refering to this site linked on your profile.
http://www.st.dysmas.faithweb.com/ which I thought was there but appears to be gone so maybe I just imagined it.


The old site was taken off line on 31st March this year.
The home page of the website had listed our dates as "1346 AD to 1485 AD".

I think you did imagine it, but that's ok. I've no idea what's actually happened and what I've dreamt anymore. :)

behanner wrote:Been reading a book on later-15th century Cheshire last few days.

Anything that might be inspiring would be very welcome.



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Postby behanner » Tue May 20, 2008 5:18 pm

All that I have come across so far that might be relevant is some interesting political moves by I believe one of the Stanleys before Blore Heath. Apparently the queen was at Chester and Stanley kinda played both sides and apparently harassed some soldiers loyal to the queen or some such. I read it before bed so I'll post more details. Apparently the source is the Rolls of Parliment.



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Postby Chickun » Wed May 21, 2008 8:54 am

The other event occured in Bury St Edmunds in 1327.


Which incident are you referring to? I have just read a really good book on Violence and social disorder in East Anglia in the later middle ages and I'd be interested in any other info. I know that the Abbey gatehouse was ransacked and destroyed at that time (hence the beautiful one put up in the 1340s still in existence) and the leading officials kidnapped and bundled off to the Low Countries by leading Burgesses.


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Postby m300572 » Wed May 21, 2008 10:26 am

You couldn't re-enact it but the best example of clergy falling out Ihave come across was the case of the Dean of Wells Cathedral and the Abbot of Glastonburys' disagreements over rights of common on the Somerset Levels - at one point the Dean's men set fire to the peat under the moor in the hope that it would burn all the way up to the abbey and destroy it - like I said, not really re-enactable but it might be something to mention to the mops as an example of the exemplary behaviour of medieval men of god who were running huge corporate enterprises!


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Postby The Methley Archer » Wed May 21, 2008 1:31 pm

Chickun,

In a nut shell from memory (book's at home!) the old abbot had let the towns people gain some fredeom from some of the abbey imposed rents/taxes and monopolies as the Abbey was the towns landlord at the time. The new abbot arrived and found out they were broke and so re-imposed some of the old rents/taxes and monopolies i.e. the mill was to come back under abbey control and all individual hand mills were to be smashed by the monks. This caused a bit of upset with the towns folk who attacked the abbey. This tooing and frooing carried on through the year each time the monks imposed some sort of control and resulted eventually in the monks getting fed up and attacking the parish church and taking hostages during a mass.


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