Gown (male) Pattern - last half of the 15th century.

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Alexander Borum
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Gown (male) Pattern - last half of the 15th century.

Postby Alexander Borum » Wed Feb 06, 2008 3:37 pm

Hello all

i am currently finding myself in need of a pattern for a cotehardie / gown, i havnt really been able to find one anywhere, and i do not currently have acces to the tailors assistant, so i figured i would ask here, if anybody know of any digitalized patterns, that would be useable.

as noted in the topic, the period i do, is late 15th century - and for the most part, i am really interested in any possible patterns that you might know of.

(and yes, i really need to order the tailors assistant for myself!)

know its a long shot, but better to try and fail, that just fail.

Cheers all




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Postby Alexander Borum » Thu Feb 07, 2008 12:20 am

hmm a bit early and not really what i had in mind - but great link none the less - i guess a picture says more than a 1000 words - so here goes


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this more what i had in mind - maybe i should have said; Pleated Gown (sorry)



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Colin Middleton
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Postby Colin Middleton » Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:49 pm

I think that it's basically a bigger doublet, with the bottom fanned out, rather than kept tight in. You then pleat it up when finished and sew in a stay tape.


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Postby Alexander Borum » Fri Feb 08, 2008 12:21 pm

hmm you could be spot on, so basicly i mix a normal doublet, with a dress and im close to that :)

guess i gotta dig up my old doublet pattern then :)

thanks for the adivice - cheers



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Postby Colin Middleton » Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:50 pm

If I remember correctly, I think you start with doublet shoulders, enlarge them so that the doublet fits underneath (shoulder is wider, underarm is lower). Then take a line out from the underarm at about 45 degrees from the vertical (or less for fewer pleats) to as far down as you want the hem to be. Make the lining then same, then put the pleats in once it's made up. Sew them to a stay strip of you wish, or just hold them there with your belt if you prefer.

As for sleeves, you need to make the outer arms longer and re-draw the top for the wider arm hole.

Hopefully once of the more skilled seamstresses on here will come along and correct any errors in the above for me.


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Postby BrendanGrif » Mon Feb 18, 2008 5:53 pm

you make it sound so easy...
I have made a gown with the help of the MTA but encountered huge problems in finishing it off: - Teh sleeves and shoulder are fine, though there is more of a gap between the doublet collar and the gown than I wanted; but I cannot get the pleats to work.
Essentially, I have spent several hours pining and repining the wool to the stays - very time it twists.
The only thing that I can think of that might be wrong is that I used some of that Iron on interlining to strengthen the fabric, and that it might have messed up how the cloth hangs

sort of thread hijacking - but relevant. Any ideas?

Brendan



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Postby frances » Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:23 pm

Don't look at me - I've never made a man's outfit. But I would have thought that the pleated gown is based upon a circle with the grain of fabric running up and down the centre of the body. Then the folds/pleats should fall in place on their own due to gravity.

The twisting you refer to might be because you are pinning the fold not on its natural line.



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Postby Tuppence » Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:31 am

Have pm'd you - let me know if you don't get cos my pm's don't behave!


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Postby Colin Middleton » Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:17 pm

frances wrote:Don't look at me - I've never made a man's outfit. But I would have thought that the pleated gown is based upon a circle with the grain of fabric running up and down the centre of the body. Then the folds/pleats should fall in place on their own due to gravity.

The twisting you refer to might be because you are pinning the fold not on its natural line.


That's how it's described in the book. I've not tried that patern, but it does SOUND simple. :oops:

Good luck.


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Postby Tuppence » Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:56 pm

nope, the grain doesn't run cf and cb, although it shouldn't make too much difference...

if the pleats are twisting they're simply in the wrong place.


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Postby BrendanGrif » Wed Feb 20, 2008 6:06 pm

sorry for delay in reading responses... if it was me that you pm'ed then I didnt get it :(

If I remember right (and is a while) I put the CF/CB seams on the selfedge edge of the fabric.

I was pretty sure that I measured right etc for the pleats (obviously not) but it makes sense that it is a fundamental error....

Brendan



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Postby Drachelis » Wed Feb 20, 2008 6:34 pm

her thanIf you put the side seams on the selvege ( sp? braIn inidling mode)and have the front and back seams cut on the angle - the pleats should fal front and back rather to the sides - there is a diagram in Medieval tailors assistant.

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Postby Sophia » Wed Feb 20, 2008 8:11 pm

Side seams are on selvedge. Important thing is to mark the pleat points (use a tack of basting thread or a different coloured thread so you can seem them).

If you look at Plate 14, p.155 in the MTA you will see that the pleat are set to the centre of the garment not toward the side seam and that they are not sharp knife pleats. The pleat points are derived from the position of the pattern strips when you expand the pattern from your base line pattern from the body block (Fig. 19, p.151 in MTA).

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Postby BrendanGrif » Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:35 pm

ok...I was pretty sure I had done the selfedge right. If that is the problem it would explain a lot

I did use the split out pattern and marked the pieces with chalk and then thread; however it is possible that I put the marks in the wrong place :oops:

I will have to double check the grain in the light of day ot see if I can figure it out - the wool is a dense weave (dont know correct term) and its not immediately obvious.

Brendan



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Postby Tuppence » Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:41 pm

if you still have the pattern you should be able to re-mark the pleat positions - I recommend tailor's tacks - otherwise, trial and error is the only way to really go


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Postby BrendanGrif » Thu Feb 21, 2008 11:38 am

I am pretty sure that I have the original pattern pieces... I will try them out and get back to you all with the answer! (This may take some time as I will have to work myself up to doing it again!)

Thanks for your help and I hope that Alexander has picked up some useful tips! (sorry for hijacking your thread)

Brendan



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Postby Colin Middleton » Fri Feb 22, 2008 1:37 pm

Memo to Me; Never make anything from memory, you keep getting things mixed up! :oops:

Thanks for setting myself and Alexander right on this. I do still recomend buying the book though.


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Postby frances » Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:52 pm

If you want to know the direction of the weave of a fabric just hold it in two places and pull. If it stretches and distorts you are off the straight of the grain. If when you pull you can feel the resistance and it lays flat, that is the straight of the grain, or the 'up and down'.



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Postby BrendanGrif » Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:38 pm

I will try that technique this evening! :D

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Postby GOK » Tue Mar 18, 2008 11:33 pm

frances wrote:If you want to know the direction of the weave of a fabric just hold it in two places and pull. If it stretches and distorts you are off the straight of the grain. If when you pull you can feel the resistance and it lays flat, that is the straight of the grain, or the 'up and down'.


Or, if you have at least one uncut side, you'll see that the grain runs parallel to the selvedge. :)



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Postby Jackie Phillips » Wed Mar 26, 2008 6:41 pm

A tip that Dave Rushworth recommends in his books is to cut the shoulders on a slight downwards curve (about 1/2 an inch lower in the centre of the shoulder), clipping the seam allowance. From practice, this forces the pleats to the centre of the panel piece which is about where you want them, rather than under the arm.

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Postby frances » Fri Mar 28, 2008 12:48 am

Now that is interesting. I can see how it would work. Does Dave say whether this is authenty methodology or something he knows from doing tailoring?




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