The Jacobites at Derby

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The Jacobites at Derby

Postby Mark P. » Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:26 pm

I understood that when the Jacobites marched into Derby the carried the Cross of Saint George.
Does anyone do this for the Derby event?


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Postby Tod » Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:27 pm

No



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Postby Mark P. » Tue Nov 27, 2007 4:04 pm

Should be done really in order to show BPC's English credentials and encourage local recruits.
That and it being historically authentic an all.


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Postby Tod » Tue Nov 27, 2007 4:48 pm

It's a CESS event.
So I would imagine they would want to sort it.
It's not the sort of thing I have around my house :wink:



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Postby Andy R » Tue Nov 27, 2007 4:54 pm

Then what the hell do you nail people to?


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Postby Tod » Tue Nov 27, 2007 5:06 pm

Doors. At the moment I have a few on my list, you're not one of them.



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Postby bonnieprincecharlie » Tue Nov 27, 2007 5:25 pm

Actually, some years back - before I was promoted to HRH or worked the cannon, so going back about 7 years - I used to carry the Saint George Cross in the Jacobite army during the Derby weekend, in a basic militia uniform.

We stopped when I was older and needed elsewhere. We need more youngsters.

Needless to say, I got more grief from my own army than any enemy!


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Postby Redders » Tue Nov 27, 2007 5:48 pm

bonnieprincecharlie wrote:Needless to say, I got more grief from my own army than any enemy!


Nice to see your were being historically accurate :D
(Long may it continue)



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Postby Lochinvar » Wed Nov 28, 2007 9:59 am

Writing as a (hopefully broad-minded) Scot, this is the sort of thing which should be resurrected. Sadly, all too often, we see myths peddled as fact to support some modern political stance.
There are too many school children in Scotland who think that Culloden was a Scots versus English affair, completely unaware of the proportion of Jocks in the Government forces.
Likewise for the Highland Clearances - at concert on Bute recently, the band announced that the Clearances had been inflicted by the English :roll: .



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Postby Neil Johnston » Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:22 am

I may be wrong Mark and don't have the reference here but as I recall the description in the original reference was just of red crosses on a white field and no mention of it being a St George's cross.

It has been argued that the Atholl Brigade were the unit mentioned in the quote (due to the order of March for that day) as carrying this flag and as such that it was more likely a red saltire on a white background . A coloured saltire other than the white and blue national colors being a style of flag commonly seen in many earlier Scottish (particularly Civil War) flags. As I recall a red saltire on white was on the list of colours burnt after Culloden.

Having said all that I have no particular gripe about the St George's cross being carried by anyone in the Jacobite Army it was probably there along with the Royal Standard, the white banner of Bourbon France and maybe even the "coffin" standard seen in contemporary prints which although often rubbished by later historians is actually specifically mentioned in a contemporary spy report.

I also honestly think that the Scots V English Culloden thing is being eroded albeit slowly. My daughter does the Jacobite Risings as part of the History curriculum at school in Edinburgh and I think it is pretty fairly and accurately taught.
Anyway who wants to add another defeat to the long line of defeats, lets add victories.......... now Prestonpans that was one of Scotlands greatest victories against the "English":lol:

By the way are the Redcoats flying a Hanoverian flag this year?? :wink:
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Postby Andy R » Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:57 am

And of course the Irish colonels colour was based on the cross of St George - okay, they didn't march on Derby, but they carried the colours in the army.

Image

These are WSS colours rather than WAS, so the list has more to do with who was fighting in 1707 rather than 1745. (The colours remained unchanged though)


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Postby Neil Johnston » Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:54 pm

Wasn't the Old Pretender/king James VIII also known as the Chevalier St George earlier in his life whilst fighting alongside the French?
I think the Stuarts were more than happy to play up their English side after all that was the throne they were really after.
St George is also a popular saintly figure in the Episcopalian/Jacobite church so would have been a popular icon to be associated with especially during an invasion of England.

So all in all symbolically it is a good bet the flag was carried somewhere in the ranks.
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Postby Mark P. » Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:53 pm

By the way are the Redcoats flying a Hanoverian flag this year??


Cheeky, to be honest I don't even know what one would look like.


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Postby Neil Johnston » Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:46 pm

Mark P. wrote:
By the way are the Redcoats flying a Hanoverian flag this year??


Cheeky, to be honest I don't even know what one would look like.


Sorry Mark
Cheap shot but I couldn't resist!!
I don't know what actual Hanoverian flags looked like.... something with a royal cipher and a white horse perhaps??
Don't worry, I'm sure Andy R will have Baron von Munchausen's 15 volume opus Hanoverianisch Fahne und Standarten 1745-1746 somewhere in his figure painting library and will post up some info :lol:
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Postby Gerry » Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:33 pm

Hanoverian flags for War of Spanish Succession

http://www.warflag.com/flags/wss/wsshanover.shtml

Hanoverian flags for Seven Years War

http://www.warflag.com/flags/syw/sywhanover.shtml


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Postby Gerry » Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:47 pm

It appears that Hanover didn't have an official state flag at the time although the following seems to have been used unofficialy :
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Postby Tod » Wed Nov 28, 2007 4:22 pm

I don't think the BRITISH army would have carried a Hanoverian flag.
I've got meeting with the Prestonpans project people on Friday and one of my big topics of the evening will be to tell them the Hanoverian army was..................................................in Hanover.



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Postby Neil Johnston » Wed Nov 28, 2007 4:35 pm

Tod wrote:I don't think the BRITISH army would have carried a Hanoverian flag.
I've got meeting with the Prestonpans project people on Friday and one of my big topics of the evening will be to tell them the Hanoverian army was..................................................in Hanover.


I knew I'd hook him with it eventually... :lol:
Patience is indeed a virtue well rewarded
8)
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Postby Mark P. » Wed Nov 28, 2007 5:00 pm

Like taking candy from a baby!


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Postby Tod » Wed Nov 28, 2007 5:05 pm

I know where you live all of you.................b******s.



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Postby Mark P. » Sun Dec 02, 2007 4:31 pm

I found the following passage in the Gentleman's Magazine Supplement for the Year 1745.

On Wednesday Dec 4. about 11 o'clock, two of the rebels van-guard entered this town, after which they rode up to the George, and there enquiring for the magistrates, demanded billets for 9000 men, or more. In a short time after the van guard rode into town, consisting of about 30 men cloathed in blue, fac'd with red; most of them had on scarlet waistcoats with gold lace, and being likely men made a good appearance. They were drawn up in the market-place, and sat on horse back 2 or 3 hours; at the same time the bells were rung, and several bonfires made, to prevent any resentment to them, that might ensue on our showing a dislike of there coming among us. About 3 in the afternoon lord Elcho, with the life-guards, and many of their chiefs also arriv'd, on horse back, to the number of about 150, most of them cloathed as above; these made a fine show, being the flower of their army:Soon after their main body also marched into town, in a tolerable order, six or eight a-breast, with about 8 standards, most of them white flags with a red cross.


As to whether these Standards were red saltires or red crosses on a white background or a mix of both I can't really tell.

On the same topic The Orderly Book of Lord Ogilvy's Regiment has the Atholl Brigade in the van as said previously for Dec 4-5 with Atholls 3rd Batt carrying the Royal Standard.

Can anybody say why the St Patrick's Cross of red saltire on white background was popular with Scots Jacobite units.


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Postby Neil Johnston » Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:37 am

Hi Mark
The St Patrick's cross c 1803 was a later "invention" to allow for Ireland's representation on the Union Flag. I would imagine it was based, ironically considering the politics of said flag, on the Irish Elizabethan War of 1590s and the Catholic Confederation flags of the 1640s which often had red crosses on a yellow or white background either in the canton or across the whole flag.

The Scottish ones are based on the Cross of Saint Andrew as patron saint i.e. an X, because he was crucified on that shape of cross......very inventive those Romans....and as such the cross was the symbol and not the colours. I'm sure the saltire cross is mentioned as a simple cross sewn on to garments of Scottish troops in a medieval document......presumably to give English archers something to aim at!!! :wink:

Only the National colour was white and azure, (not dark or navy blue as in Union Flag). The saltire was seen in many combinations of colours in the Civil Wars as recorded in the lists of the flags captured after Dunbar and Preston. Often these colours were related to the arms of a Lord or family so for example Argyle's in Civil Wars were black and yellow and Stewart of Appins from 1689 - 1746 were yellow saltire on blue.
The red and white for some reason must have been important to the units advancing into Derby or were indeed just to keep in with the locals and were St George's crosses.

Interestingly though the oft quoted and drawn Jacobite Standard i.e the one with the very unusual and slightly "60s" looking double square thing going on was also red and white.....don't know why? :?


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