Practical Viking - change of blade shape

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madoc

Practical Viking - change of blade shape

Postby madoc » Tue Mar 06, 2007 5:51 pm

I've used the "practical viking" (as sold by loads of people) to make weapons up as the blade isn't bad and you get a wooden scabbard if you knock the horrible top and bottom off. Just add a decent handle.

However there is a new blade type now. It is much thinner and lighter BUT has this strange wide fuller, with two grooves either side. It's like they've hollow ground the space between the fuller and the edge to reduce weight further.

Is this a dark age pattern in any way ?



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Postby chrisanson » Tue Mar 06, 2007 9:54 pm

i dont quit understand. got a link?



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Postby WorkMonkey » Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:40 am

Like multiple fullers?


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Postby Zachos » Wed Mar 07, 2007 8:34 am

Workmonkey did a serious post!

I hear Hell is a bit chilly this season...


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Postby nathan » Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:25 am

unless i'm misunderstanding your description (email me piccies if you have them) not dark age european.

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Postby WorkMonkey » Thu Mar 08, 2007 11:45 am

Zachos wrote:Workmonkey did a serious post!

I hear Hell is a bit chilly this season...


I've done them before!

It's not that big a deal!


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Postby madoc » Thu Mar 08, 2007 7:35 pm

Cannot find picture.
All websites show the old (correct) pattern.

The vendors who I contacted tell me that they only have the new (incorrect) shape or didn't respond.

so, caveat emptor.



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Postby Zachos » Fri Mar 09, 2007 4:24 pm

The spotlight series on types of swords from this page might help here. I would of posted it earlier, but had lost the link until now.


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Postby Dishonoured Knight » Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:17 pm

Its a triple fuller as follows: For some reason the page doesnt print this properly but imagine the gap in the middle is about 3x wider than the gaps at either edge:

TOP
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
BOTTOM

Looks horrible but has been passed by both Regia and Vike authenticity officers as my mate bought one. My biggest complaint with the blade is it is far too flexible, they've done the same on the Hand & A Half version and when grappling you can easily bend it in two.

Incidently the change in blade occured when Hanwei took over from Paul Chen who made the original practical series, personally I think it takes a lot less metal to make the new ones and they are therefore cheaper to produce (although I note the price hasn't come down).


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Postby madoc » Thu Mar 15, 2007 10:43 am

found someone with a pic:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Practical-Re-enac ... dZViewItem

What find is the shape copied from ?
I had a good look through a few books I have and across the web but I might have missed it ?

I want to use a blade to make a friend an early saxon sword. I really wanted an oval section sword but a wide, central fullered blade would be fine (as per the viking age swords). I am still not sure that this is it



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Postby chrisanson » Thu Mar 15, 2007 8:32 pm

It just don’t look right to my eyes.
It even looks to be rolled to me.



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Postby madoc » Thu Mar 15, 2007 8:49 pm

I have it from Regia's authenticity officer that none of these blade types have been presented. Comment is that they do not look accurate.

However, the older style with the proper single fuller is deemed to be "passable". Cannot speak for the NFPS (vikings)



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Postby WorkMonkey » Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:39 am

How "early" is this "early Saxon" sword you want to make?

Because you can find continental migration period swords with up to atleast 5 fullers that i'm aware of, though I'm sure it can go up to 9. And this is 5th/6th century what I would class as very early Saxon.

Image

That's mine, (Image from Heron Armoury Website. Tim makes luverly Migration swords)Image though the wood has since been replaced by horn after it cracked. The black of the horn compliments the bronze colour much better than the lighter wood did as well. It's got three evenly spaced fullers. I've only ever seen multiple fullers evenly spaced and evenly sized though, never a big one in the middle and two smaller ones on the side. Can't you get hold of one of the old single wide fuller blade types? There's still alot of traders selling them and they're perfectly acceptable, a single fuller being easier to achieve than seperate ones.

Oh sh** I made another serious post..er...er...

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Postby chrisanson » Mon Mar 19, 2007 12:15 pm

I got a closer look at one this weekend at TORM. They also had the old single fuller one to compare. I still don’t like it and the old one was cheaper.



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Postby Biro » Mon Mar 26, 2007 1:02 pm

Hard to tell from those pics, but that edge-fuller looks very close to the edge. Maybe they are intending for it to look like the tapering needed to form a sharp blade, only widening closer to the edge for safety ?

Is it more authentic to have no taper as opposed to having one and then have it widen at the edge? Is it like say, comparing a spear with a ball on the tip with one where the whole spearhead is the same thickness as the ball...

Playing devils advocate a bit here....

Talking authenticity at the edge of a re-enactment sword is probably fairly pointless imo, since most don't have the taper down to the edge that is required to make a blade - many being just a flat section of uniform thickness with a fuller in the middle. There is no edge, nor distal taper. The only way to have a truly authentic sword is for it to be sharp, with the correct blade cross-section for the period (diamond, lenticular, octagonal etc.. with the correct type of edge - hollow ground, straight.... And for dark-age... should probably be pattern-welded too.



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Postby WorkMonkey » Mon Mar 26, 2007 7:36 pm

Pattern welding is out of fashion for the type of fittings being used for this sword isn't it? This is like, 9th century for a tri-lobe pommel?

Pattern weldings pretty much gone by the 8th century I thought.




Biro wrote:Hard to tell from those pics, but that edge-fuller looks very close to the edge. Maybe they are intending for it to look like the tapering needed to form a sharp blade, only widening closer to the edge for safety ?

Is it more authentic to have no taper as opposed to having one and then have it widen at the edge? Is it like say, comparing a spear with a ball on the tip with one where the whole spearhead is the same thickness as the ball...

Playing devils advocate a bit here....

Talking authenticity at the edge of a re-enactment sword is probably fairly pointless imo, since most don't have the taper down to the edge that is required to make a blade - many being just a flat section of uniform thickness with a fuller in the middle. There is no edge, nor distal taper. The only way to have a truly authentic sword is for it to be sharp, with the correct blade cross-section for the period (diamond, lenticular, octagonal etc.. with the correct type of edge - hollow ground, straight.... And for dark-age... should probably be pattern-welded too.


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Postby Biro » Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:02 pm

WorkMonkey wrote:Pattern welding is out of fashion for the type of fittings being used for this sword isn't it? This is like, 9th century for a tri-lobe pommel?

Pattern weldings pretty much gone by the 8th century I thought.



I honestly couldn't say as it's not my period, but the point I'm making is that other than the general shape of the blade and size of the central fuller, you can't really argue authenticity for re-enactment blades.



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Postby WorkMonkey » Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:11 pm

Well, no, since they're made from the wrong material for a start. But if we all went round using sharp iron blades we'd soon run out of people in the hobby.


Biro wrote:
WorkMonkey wrote:Pattern welding is out of fashion for the type of fittings being used for this sword isn't it? This is like, 9th century for a tri-lobe pommel?

Pattern weldings pretty much gone by the 8th century I thought.



I honestly couldn't say as it's not my period, but the point I'm making is that other than the general shape of the blade and size of the central fuller, you can't really argue authenticity for re-enactment blades.


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Postby tonw » Fri Mar 30, 2007 2:53 pm

I had a look at this sword at the TORM and I'm not sure on the quality of the blade, it seems to have an inbuilt weakness with the outer fullers being that if the blade burs you'll be sharpening down to a narrow edge, that and the fact that these swords (if they are made by the same people who do the practice Hand and a Half are not brilliant on their durability)


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Postby Dishonoured Knight » Tue Apr 03, 2007 2:24 pm

madoc wrote:I have it from Regia's authenticity officer that none of these blade types have been presented. Comment is that they do not look accurate.

However, the older style with the proper single fuller is deemed to be "passable". Cannot speak for the NFPS (vikings)


There were at least 3 at York and 2 at Shrewsbury training that were allowed onto the field.

They look bloody awful to be perfectly honest, I also have it on good authority that the entire practical range is currently in the process of being banned in Germany because they are prone to bending and shattering in combat.

Having trained against the new hand & a half and Vike versions i can confirm the bendyness of them, when grappling with the hand & a half i managed to get out of an arm lock simply by bending the blade almost to a right angle where it promptly remained.


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Postby madoc » Tue Apr 03, 2007 5:27 pm

Probably all in the hands of "invited" groups. There were a fair number of invitees at both York (and also some at Shrewsbury)

I know this as a local group that I occasionally practice, of a Sunday afternoon, with went to both events and they certainly have a couple of these weapons.

Anyhow, it's not right and I won't buy one.



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Postby Dingo8MyBaby » Tue Apr 10, 2007 10:50 pm

RE http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Practical-Re-enac ... dZViewItem

Mass produced in china - looked at one six months back and dismissed it as 'wang'

I also have it on good authority that the entire practical range is currently in the process of being banned in Germany because they are prone to bending and shattering in combat.

That's not good - but good to know!



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Postby Nikki » Thu Apr 12, 2007 7:55 pm

Dishonoured Knight wrote:There were at least 3 at York and 2 at Shrewsbury training that were allowed onto the field.


However Regia doesn't do authenticity checks for training events.

Nikki



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Postby Brendan C » Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:24 pm

Nikki wrote:
Dishonoured Knight wrote:There were at least 3 at York and 2 at Shrewsbury training that were allowed onto the field.


However Regia doesn't do authenticity checks for training events.

Nikki


Nikki, York is a major event not a training event, and if there is a serious safety flaw with these blades, they should not be allowed anywhere

Brendan C



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Postby zauberdachs » Fri Apr 13, 2007 11:21 am

They seem to have the flexibility of sports fencing foils, regularly bending round your guard to hit you in unexpected places.

I wouldn't be happy facing one of these on the field...


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Postby Dishonoured Knight » Mon Apr 16, 2007 3:02 pm

Email came round off Steve Etheridge and Nigel Amos the other day confirming that Regia don't like these swords at all and theres a good chance they won't let people on the field with them.


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Postby Nigel » Tue Apr 17, 2007 7:28 am

We Conquest took one look at em and thought no a trader was trying to sell one of our newbies one alst November and we stopped him.

Glad we made the right decision


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Postby Frakokk » Wed Apr 18, 2007 5:15 pm

Brendan C wrote:
Nikki wrote:
Dishonoured Knight wrote:There were at least 3 at York and 2 at Shrewsbury training that were allowed onto the field.


However Regia doesn't do authenticity checks for training events.

Nikki


Nikki, York is a major event not a training event, and if there is a serious safety flaw with these blades, they should not be allowed anywhere

Brendan C


Yes, that's true. But surely you remember what a nightmare it is doing kit checks at York? It isn't that many years since you were there yourself.

Sarah



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Postby Patrick Kelly » Wed Apr 18, 2007 6:53 pm

Dishonoured Knight wrote:Incidently the change in blade occured when Hanwei took over from Paul Chen who made the original practical series, personally I think it takes a lot less metal to make the new ones and they are therefore cheaper to produce (although I note the price hasn't come down).


Hanwei is the steel fabrication company owned by Paul Chen, they're one and the same. Hanwei's historic "replicas" are shoddy at best and I'd never use the practical series for any contact-based reenactment.



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Postby Brendan C » Fri Apr 20, 2007 5:35 pm

Frakokk wrote:
Brendan C wrote:
Nikki wrote:
Dishonoured Knight wrote:There were at least 3 at York and 2 at Shrewsbury training that were allowed onto the field.


However Regia doesn't do authenticity checks for training events.

Nikki


Nikki, York is a major event not a training event, and if there is a serious safety flaw with these blades, they should not be allowed anywhere

Brendan C


Yes, that's true. But surely you remember what a nightmare it is doing kit checks at York? It isn't that many years since you were there yourself.

Sarah


Sarah, it's been over 12 years since I was at a York show, when there were 300+ on the field - I remember how astonished John Philips and Dave Page were at the time. I do remember how much of a nightmare the checks were back then. However, since both Steve and Nige have said, since my last post, that the weapons will probably be banned from the field, Regia is obviously on the ball regarding this.

Brendan C




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