Welsh Stuffs

Moderator: Moderators

IagotheHungry
Posts: 54
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:46 pm

Welsh Stuffs

Postby IagotheHungry » Sun Jun 13, 2010 4:47 pm

Hallo,
Just wondered if anyone had any idea if there are examples cited anywhere of Welsh soldiers wearing: one shoe (got to grip on mountain-sides, see :wink: ) a black shield, a short haircut and a 'tache. I'm particularly interested in the latter, because I'd like an excuse to grow a moustache again!

A friend of mine has told me these were all features in the 10th-12th centuries, but I've had a lot of trouble finding any references, particularly contemporary ones.

Cheers!


"Do you dress like that all the time?" "Of course, except in the shower." "...They didn't have showers back then, did they?"

User avatar
Phil the Grips
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2000
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2005 2:01 pm
Location: Auld Reekie- capital village o' Jockland
Contact:

Re: Welsh Stuffs

Postby Phil the Grips » Sun Jun 13, 2010 4:56 pm

This image is responsible for the "one shoe" part-
Image

Someone can probably tell you where it is from


--Angels also carry weapons--
http://www.blackboarswordsmanship.co.uk/

User avatar
Cap-a-pie
Posts: 214
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:42 pm
Location: Cardiff
Contact:

Re: Welsh Stuffs

Postby Cap-a-pie » Tue Jun 15, 2010 11:13 am

Might be worth sending a PM to "gwyddal" he does post on the forum now and then - and is a mind of information when it comes to anything Medieval and Welsh. Seem to recall he mentioned that the current theory from some academics, on the single shoe, is that it is nothing to do with obtaining a good grip on the mountainside but more of a pictorial representation of wealth compared to others.


Suppliers of Authentic Medieval Maille

http://www.capapie.co.uk

IagotheHungry
Posts: 54
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:46 pm

Re: Welsh Stuffs

Postby IagotheHungry » Tue Jun 15, 2010 3:04 pm

Cheers guys, will do. I've no idea where it came from obviously, so any leads or theories are worth following :)


"Do you dress like that all the time?" "Of course, except in the shower." "...They didn't have showers back then, did they?"

The_Maille_Tailor
Posts: 81
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 1:43 pm
Location: Gogledd heulog. Cymru
Contact:

Re: Welsh Stuffs

Postby The_Maille_Tailor » Sat Dec 04, 2010 1:54 am

The image is from the 'Littere Wallie' If thats of any help?
Its a 'doodle' if you will be the scribe on a C13th text if I remember correctly.
I can find out which one when I'm at uni next.
There's a good theory that the portrayal of shoes on Irish, Welsh and Scots troops in this period is more to do with social status than their usefulness in combat.
In other words, the Irish have no shoes, being the least civilized, the Welsh one shoe being more so, and the Scots a pair being closest to civilized.


http://www.mailletailor.co.uk/ Fitting links into other links for over a decade now. If its maille I can make it fit.

IagotheHungry
Posts: 54
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:46 pm

Re: Welsh Stuffs

Postby IagotheHungry » Sat Dec 04, 2010 1:37 pm

Ah yes, I think I read about the status idea somewhere just recently.

That's great, it'd be lovely if you could, thanks very much! :)


"Do you dress like that all the time?" "Of course, except in the shower." "...They didn't have showers back then, did they?"

The_Maille_Tailor
Posts: 81
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 1:43 pm
Location: Gogledd heulog. Cymru
Contact:

Re: Welsh Stuffs

Postby The_Maille_Tailor » Sat Dec 04, 2010 2:05 pm

No probs,
I'll be in again on Monday and will be able to dig out the book then.


http://www.mailletailor.co.uk/ Fitting links into other links for over a decade now. If its maille I can make it fit.

User avatar
Brother Ranulf
Post Centurion
Posts: 949
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:46 pm
Location: Canterbury

Re: Welsh Stuffs

Postby Brother Ranulf » Wed Dec 15, 2010 3:23 pm

With regard to Welsh shields and moustaches/haircuts, Giraldus Cambrensis is a reliable late 12th century source. In his "Description of Wales", Book 1 chapter11 he states that the styles of his day date back to the time of the Romans, so they can certainly be applied to pre-Conquest Wales.

"Both the men and the women cut their hair short and shape it round the ears and eyes. Like the Parthians the women cover their heads with a flowing white veil which sticks up in folds like a crown. . . . the men shave their beards, leaving only their moustaches. This is not a new habit but one which goes back to time immemorial . . . Sometimes they shave their heads too, so that they can move more freely . . . Of all the people I have seen the Welsh are the most particular in shaving the lower parts of the body."

In chapter 8 of the same book he refers to the Welsh using round shields, handfuls of arrows and long spears.

No mention of black shields (I would be interested if anyone knows of such a reference).

Short hair was certainly the Welsh style - but if it had to be cropped around the ears and eyes it can not have been "short" in the modern sense, simply shorter than the contemporary English fashion, which was often very long. Bare legs and feet, cloaks and belted tunics were the most common common clothing for men - Giraldus mentions meeting the son of a prince dressed exactly in that way. There was nothing like the same class structure in Wales as in Norman England, so for the Welsh at least "status" had little meaning.


Brother Ranulf

"Patres nostri et nos hanc insulam in brevi edomuimus in brevi nostris subdidimus legibus, nostris obsequiis mancipavimus" - Walter Espec 1138

IagotheHungry
Posts: 54
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:46 pm

Re: Welsh Stuffs

Postby IagotheHungry » Thu Dec 16, 2010 12:26 pm

Brother Ranulf wrote:Of all the people I have seen the Welsh are the most particular in shaving the lower parts of the body."


So does this mean I have to start shaving my legs? :crazy:

That's great, thanks Ranulf! :)


"Do you dress like that all the time?" "Of course, except in the shower." "...They didn't have showers back then, did they?"

The_Maille_Tailor
Posts: 81
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 1:43 pm
Location: Gogledd heulog. Cymru
Contact:

Re: Welsh Stuffs

Postby The_Maille_Tailor » Wed Dec 22, 2010 1:27 am

Brother Ranulf wrote: There was nothing like the same class structure in Wales as in Norman England, so for the Welsh at least "status" had little meaning.


As long as you take this reference in its context of the late C12th, rather than as an explanation of how the Welsh were attired throughout the medieval period, you will be ok.
There is a reference from Froissart about how Welsh soldiers were trouserless in the french wars, wore red tunics, rawhide shoes, spent their money on dairy products, drank nothing but buttermilk and fought everything in sight! (nothing new there then?) 8-) :D

Got the reference from 'Littere Wallie' for the one shoed figures for you now, and am working on the translation.


http://www.mailletailor.co.uk/ Fitting links into other links for over a decade now. If its maille I can make it fit.

IagotheHungry
Posts: 54
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:46 pm

Re: Welsh Stuffs

Postby IagotheHungry » Thu Jan 06, 2011 1:26 am

That's great, thanks so much again :)


"Do you dress like that all the time?" "Of course, except in the shower." "...They didn't have showers back then, did they?"

User avatar
Thor Ewing
Posts: 51
Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 10:40 am
Location: now based on the Welsh border, I travel to events all over the UK and beyond
Contact:

Re: Welsh Stuffs

Postby Thor Ewing » Thu Jan 06, 2011 2:15 pm

The_Maille_Tailor wrote:Got the reference from 'Littere Wallie' for the one shoed figures for you now, and am working on the translation.


Could you post the Latin please?
I'd love to see what it says - not just about shoes either.

Best, Thor




Return to “410-1100”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests