thick cotton saxon cloak

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dbob.culley
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thick cotton saxon cloak

Postby dbob.culley » Thu Jul 30, 2009 4:33 pm

if anyone knows of anyone that sells thick cotton cloaks that fit the saxon era please contact me. thanks


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Postby sally » Thu Jul 30, 2009 4:41 pm

cotton isnt a very likely material for a cloak for that period, would you be better with a nice woollen cloak perhaps?



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Postby dbob.culley » Thu Jul 30, 2009 4:45 pm

ahh true but i a vegan not strict but my mum is !!!!


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Postby Medicus Matt » Thu Jul 30, 2009 4:50 pm

dbob, excuse me if you've done this already since asking for suggestions for groups to join.

It'd be a good idea to find a group (probably the Vike or Regia for your chosen period...in fact probably the Vike as I don't think Regia have anything close enough to you to make it practical, given your age) you want to join before you start spending money on kit.

They'll have a kit guide and a list of 'do's' and 'dont's'...they'll also be able to help you out with stuff like suppliers.

Any money you spend before doing this may well turn out to be wasted.


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Postby dbob.culley » Thu Jul 30, 2009 4:56 pm

true thanks i might leave it for a while then. :)


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Postby Medicus Matt » Thu Jul 30, 2009 4:59 pm

dbob.culley wrote:ahh true but i a vegan not strict but my mum is !!!!


Meaning no wool and no leather?

You're pretty much screwed.


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Postby Thrud » Thu Jul 30, 2009 5:03 pm

I don't know... Linen clothing, birch-bark shoes?


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Postby dbob.culley » Thu Jul 30, 2009 5:13 pm

thanks for that matt! lol


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Postby sally » Thu Jul 30, 2009 5:23 pm

its certainly going to be difficult to achieve a plausible looking outfit without using the primary materials from the period. Yes, you can use linen for some things, but its really hard to substitute the wool and leather - I know there are plenty of options for modern clothing, but they don't behave the same way and could possibly even put you at risk. For example, many synthetic fibres are a hazard if you are working close to open fires which is pretty much given within re-enactment, a spark on wool will singe and be easy to extinguish, a spark on many synthetics can melt the fabric to your skin before you can put it out. They also tend to look, drape and take dye very differently to wool, making it potentially difficult to comply with yoru chosen groups kit standards.

I'm not saying that its going to be impossible for you to take part under these circumstances, I'm sure you arent the only vegan in the re-enactment world, but it is going to make getting your kit together a major challenge and you might want to consider precisely what you want to get from your hobby, and how far you are willing to go to achieve compromises that allow for offering the right visual impression whilst supporting your ethical choices.



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Postby Trading-Dragon » Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:14 pm

Keeping in mind that he is not a Vegan - his mum is.

So correct me if I'm wrong but might there be the potential of him wearing wool and leather if it's on loan from his group and stays with the group?


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Postby WorkMonkey » Fri Jul 31, 2009 5:50 pm

Don't buy cotton, you won't get within 100 metres of any decent re-enactment event wearing it...well you might, but you'll be promptly told to take it off.

If you can't wear or use wool or leather, then as matt said..you're pretty much screwed.

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Postby Sir Thomas Hylton » Fri Jul 31, 2009 6:00 pm

Plus you do not kill the animal to get wool. Sheep would naturally shed excess wool anyway as the season changes if man did not help the animal. Antlers get shed naturally without the animal dying. Infact even horn can breaks, or of course be reduced in length for humanitarian reasons for animal welfare. So no reason why someone who refuses to wear pels should not wear wool & antler garments & jewelry etc.

That said, has anyone tried socks made of bamboo fibre.... lovely & cool to the skin, just think what linen socks would be like. 8)



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Postby nathan » Fri Jul 31, 2009 11:38 pm

Honest advice - you are probably on a hiding to nowhere here, but it might be viable.

As a strict Ovo-Lacto Vegetarian i had to make some serious choices when i started re-enacting. Simple reality is that leather and wool would have been essential components of clothing up until the invention of man-made and synthetic fibres in the modern period. Now for me the big issue is of course leather and i made the decision that it was either to not re-enact or accept that i was going to have to make exceptions (i don't wear leather shoes/belts/clothes in the real world).

Assuming you can't make the same exceptions I went with (and given that I made it for 4 months as a full vegan before chocolate did for me, so i do accept i am not the posted boy for committed vegan ethics here) then ...

Sally is quite right about the risks around fires with synthetics - I'd be honest i would skip a cloak entirely in your situation, nothing is likely to be right enough, cotton will be too absorbent (and not particularly warm).

Is recycled wool ok? Whilst i hate to see them (being thickly felted/fulled and so not right for the period) charity shop blankets then at least become an option for your cloak and possibly tunic/hose.

For the rest of your kit you will get away with linen though (noting that much of what you will be using it for really should be wool). Woven textile (tabletweave) belt is entirely viable, skip shoes entierly (you won't be able to make turn-shoes in pleather the internal texture is too visible). Reality is as i mentioned that most clothing would have been wool, but at least linen is a period acceptable fibre (so should pass in even fairly authentic groups).

Give me a shout if you have any more questions.

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Postby sally » Sat Aug 01, 2009 8:25 am

Also, if it fits with your personal ethical parameters, there are people here who can assist you to make contact with people who will weave to order in wool that comes entirely from pet sheep that you can visit to assure yourself that they are cared for in an appropriate manner and will never end up as dinner. I realise that won't assist if your personal feelings are that all animal product use is unacceptable, but I have met people who are willing to compromise if they have met the animal in question and can satisfy themselves that no harm comes to it.
A handwoven item like this will be expensive- but possibly an option if it fits in with the choices you need to make?



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Postby Medicus Matt » Sat Aug 01, 2009 11:13 am

Tablet woven belt? That's going to be wool anyway unless you've got the money to lay someone to make a linen one.

I was curious as to what the vegan objection to wool is so I went to a vegan society website.
Something to do with supporting the rights of sheep not to be farmed. Not killed or abused (it's not like you see much in the way of battery sheep farming is it?), farmed.

Sorry, had to laugh. They wouldn't bloody exist, certianly not in their current form, if it weren't for farming.

Not having a pop at vegans.....each to their own, leaves more meat for me but...well... not eating meat, fair enough, not using a product that requires the animal to have been killed, righto.

Not using any animal products at all....so they don't eat honey then?
What about stuff containing yeast?


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Postby WorkMonkey » Sat Aug 01, 2009 12:49 pm

Surely even plants have some form of bacteria or life force growing on them. Unless they've been chemically zapped, which I doubt would meet with their ethics either.


Extra Extra, read all about it. Medicus Matt in "leaves more meat for me" shocker. Where's that damned innuendo face...oh yea, wrong place.


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Postby nathan » Mon Aug 03, 2009 1:09 am

[quote="Medicus Matt"]Tablet woven belt? That's going to be wool anyway unless you've got the money to lay someone to make a linen one.[quote]

Why would a wool tablet-woven belt be more expensive that linen m8, it's the work that costs more-so than the fibre. Certainly my normal supplier will happily do linen for the same price as wool (but then she does only work in finer threads rather than the oh so chunky knitting wool I have seen around)

(and there is a PM on the OT stuff)


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Postby Medicus Matt » Mon Aug 03, 2009 8:27 am

nathan wrote:
Why would a wool tablet-woven belt be more expensive that linen m8, it's the work that costs more-so than the fibre. Certainly my normal supplier will happily do linen for the same price as wool (but then she does only work in finer threads rather than the oh so chunky knitting wool I have seen around)

(and there is a PM on the OT stuff)


Just from personal oberservation of watching someone using linen. It was a lot finer then even finely (drop spindle) spun wool and seemed to require more patience (and therefore more time) to weave. There was certainly a lot more swearing involved. Of course, that's entirely subjective.

Cheers for the PM. I've sent one back. :wink:


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Postby Lady Willows Retinue » Mon Aug 03, 2009 9:31 am

I wold also agree that there would be a possibility, even if you have strong vegan convictions, of getting wool woven from pet sheep, or perhaps from sheep kept at one of the heritage parks (such as Cosmeston perhaps), as these are obviously kept for the purpose of upkeeping ancient breeds & not for Sunday lunch.

Tablet weave could then provide quite strong & serviceable belts, particularly if using the chunkier threads, & those would be quite quick to make.

A further suggestion - rather than going barefoot, try wooden clogs. I have seen these on sale at a couple of shows now - look much the same as modern Dutch clompen - designs don't change. As long as you dont get the style of clog that has a leather upper, that would avoid the leather shoe problem. The top strap on the clog could also be replaced with tablet weave - would look quite effective. They are just a bit hard to get used to, for getting about quickly. They are usually worn with soft leather shoes/slippers inside, but this could be made out of fabric instead.

However, you may just have to confront the problem that the concept of Vegan didn't exist in antiquity, so if you are to portray authentically, you may have to accept a small amount of animal based fabrics - no one would ever try to make you eat one though - there are a lot of vegetarian re-enactors out there too (not myself personally though, as I am addicted to Martin's jerky).



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Postby dbob.culley » Wed Aug 05, 2009 11:28 am

thanks all of u there are many things that i unlike my mum that i am not so strict about because i dont mind wearing wool. i mean i dont like wearing leather and u can get good alternatives that look like leather. but i wont eat meat and yeast isnt an animal. thanks do any of you know about anyone with a pet sheepthat i could use the wool from. lol 8)


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Postby Lady Willows Retinue » Wed Aug 05, 2009 11:33 am

have a look in the yellow pages if there is a petting zoo near you (where the kiddies go & feed the furries & stroke them, but no one eats them), or try somewhere like Cosmeston perhaps.
However, having the wool spun & woven will be expensive.
As for the leather, as said before you can use tablet weave belts & wooden clogs over cloth inner shoes - but I wouldnt try using plastic leather lookalike stuff.



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Postby dbob.culley » Wed Aug 05, 2009 11:37 am

k thanks
:)


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Postby dbob.culley » Wed Aug 05, 2009 11:38 am

k thanks
:)


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Postby Thrud » Wed Aug 05, 2009 1:01 pm

Lady Willows Retinue wrote:have a look in the yellow pages if there is a petting zoo near you (where the kiddies go & feed the furries & stroke them, but no one eats them), or try somewhere like Cosmeston perhaps.
However, having the wool spun & woven will be expensive.
As for the leather, as said before you can use tablet weave belts & wooden clogs over cloth inner shoes - but I wouldnt try using plastic leather lookalike stuff.


As someone that makes shoes I don't see how it would be possible to make shoes from fake leather in the same method as that say for turn shoes.


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Postby Medicus Matt » Wed Aug 05, 2009 2:27 pm

Lady Willows Retinue wrote: wooden clogs over cloth inner shoes - .


Not in the period he wants to do he can't.
Not that I'm aware of anyway.


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Postby Thrud » Wed Aug 05, 2009 3:54 pm

Medicus Matt wrote:
Lady Willows Retinue wrote: wooden clogs over cloth inner shoes - .


Not in the period he wants to do he can't.
Not that I'm aware of anyway.


We're having a discussion at the moment about viking era clogs, there seems to be some evidence, allthough I have not seen it yet myself, of wooden soled shoes with leather uppers.

Possibly old uppers that have been nailed onto wooden soles when the leather ones wore out. Not sure yet. I am keen to find out though.


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Postby Hobbitstomper » Wed Aug 05, 2009 4:16 pm

I question the wisdom of sending a re-enactor down to a petting zoo because he is after a pair of shoes. It is a bit like sending a Norman re-enactor to a cake factory or a wood turner for a stroll in the local forest.



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Postby Hobbitstomper » Wed Aug 05, 2009 4:17 pm

I question the wisdom of sending a re-enactor down to a petting zoo because he is after a pair of shoes. It is a bit like sending a Norman re-enactor to a cake factory or a wood turner for a stroll in the local forest.



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Postby Medicus Matt » Wed Aug 05, 2009 4:19 pm

Thrud wrote:
We're having a discussion at the moment about viking era clogs, there seems to be some evidence, allthough I have not seen it yet myself, of wooden soled shoes with leather uppers.

Possibly old uppers that have been nailed onto wooden soles when the leather ones wore out. Not sure yet. I am keen to find out though.


I talked to a chap once who was making a case for the use of clogs in 'The North', claiming that they were a hangover from the days of the Danelaw. No evidence that I recall but then that's not surprising ....hang on.

Just checked Wright's "Anglo-Saxon and Old English vocabularies" and there, under the listing of Abbot Aelfric's vocabulary (so early 11th century) is the phrase "triwen sceo"....a shoe made from wood.

Well, it doesn't tell us what they looked like or anything else really but at least if someone says "Did they have wooden shoes in those days then?", you can say Yes! :D


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Postby Thrud » Wed Aug 05, 2009 4:34 pm

Medicus Matt wrote:
Thrud wrote:
We're having a discussion at the moment about viking era clogs, there seems to be some evidence, allthough I have not seen it yet myself, of wooden soled shoes with leather uppers.

Possibly old uppers that have been nailed onto wooden soles when the leather ones wore out. Not sure yet. I am keen to find out though.


I talked to a chap once who was making a case for the use of clogs in 'The North', claiming that they were a hangover from the days of the Danelaw. No evidence that I recall but then that's not surprising ....hang on.

Just checked Wright's "Anglo-Saxon and Old English vocabularies" and there, under the listing of Abbot Aelfric's vocabulary (so early 11th century) is the phrase "triwen sceo"....a shoe made from wood.

Well, it doesn't tell us what they looked like or anything else really but at least if someone says "Did they have wooden shoes in those days then?", you can say Yes! :D


One of the society bods is an archeologist and has seen either first hand or in a paper, evidence of a wooden shoe sole.

I will keep you posted.


By the sacred toenail clippings of J.R.R Tolkein... You'll pay for that hellspawn!


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