C5th Armour padding

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burton_kane

C5th Armour padding

Postby burton_kane » Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:54 pm

just a general question that came up the other night with a small group of us in suffolk is the use of gambeson or arming jackets with maile for the C5th period. anyone wish to point us to a good referance book or web page.

at the moment i have a heavy wool over shirt to take out some of the long term movement pains



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Postby Nigel » Thu Jan 10, 2008 10:55 pm

Its called a sub armillis and look in one of Graham summners ospreys for a pic or to ourchase

contact www.paddedarmour.com


There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

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Postby egfroth » Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:37 pm

The Romans used them. There's no evidence for their being used by the Anglo-Saxons - if anything, the contrary is true. Which do you want to portray?



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Postby Medicus Matt » Fri Jan 11, 2008 11:23 am

I think it depends on what's being portrayed and, knowing something of this groups background, I don't think that you can dismiss use of manufactured under-armour as easily as that.

If the 'Anglo-Saxons' (you don't really still use such an outdated term for The Englisc down there on the bottom of the world do you Eggy? :wink: ) in question are actually foederati or former foederati, from the 'Barbaricum' but still familiar with items of Roman military equipment... the sort of warriors who would also have worn the wide, chip carved belt sets and other 'roman' trappings as part of their equipment, then I think that use of a subarmalis or thoracomachus (nice thick felt with a leather outer covering) is entirely possible.

Two or three thick woolen tunics will do some of the job of absorbing the force of a blow that mail doesn't soak up but not to the same extent as a proper padded underarmour. Anyone who'd experience the latter would be unlikely to favour the former.
Like so many things, I think that the use of such things would be maintained until no longer practical/available.


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Postby zauberdachs » Fri Jan 11, 2008 12:12 pm

Nigel wrote:Its called a sub armillis and look in one of Graham summners ospreys for a pic or to ourchase

contact www.paddedarmour.com


nice shiny new site there :)


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Postby Nigel » Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:44 pm

It will be when its finished


There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

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Postby egfroth » Sat Jan 12, 2008 11:22 am

Medicus Matt wrote:I think it depends on what's being portrayed and, knowing something of this groups background, I don't think that you can dismiss use of manufactured under-armour as easily as that.

Agreed - but there's no evidence for the foederati in England being supplied with Roman kit. Or is there?

If the 'Anglo-Saxons' (you don't really still use such an outdated term for The Englisc down there on the bottom of the world do you Eggy? :wink: )

Nup. But I thought you might over there in Pommyland - going by the use of the term on this forum . . . :twisted:

in question are actually foederati or former foederati, from the 'Barbaricum' but still familiar with items of Roman military equipment...
the sort of warriors who would also have worn the wide, chip carved belt sets and other 'roman' trappings as part of their equipment, then I think that use of a subarmalis or thoracomachus (nice thick felt with a leather outer covering) is entirely possible.

Well, maybe . . I really don't think we can be sure of this either way. Why would the Romano-Britons supply their mercenaries with their own kit? I'd have thought they'd be hired "as-is".


Two or three thick woolen tunics will do some of the job of absorbing the force of a blow that mail doesn't soak up but not to the same extent as a proper padded underarmour. Anyone who'd experience the latter would be unlikely to favour the former.
Like so many things, I think that the use of such things would be maintained until no longer practical/available.


It's a possibility, but we really don't know. Certainly, there's no evidence of their being used by the later Englisc - but that might be just down to "lost technology".



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Postby Medicus Matt » Sun Jan 13, 2008 6:52 pm

egfroth wrote:
Agreed - but there's no evidence for the foederati in England being supplied with Roman kit. Or is there?[quote]

Supplied? Probably not, seeing as no-one in the later Roman military were supplied with kit. Regular troops were given a kit allowance as part of their pay and would source thier own. You'd expect foederati to do the same and to buy from the same sources. That would explain why you get distinctly Romanesque items in what are thought to be germanic graves, such as the wide 'chip-carved' belts sets, thought to be favoured by both regular and federate troops of the early 5th century.

Add to that the fact that germanic and scandinavian armies were importing Roman military hardware on a vast scale from at least the second century AD (and, if you think I'm exagerating, go look through the exavation reports on Illerup) and it becomes even more likely that they would have been familiar with such things as specific underarmours.

Soldiers adapt and use the best kit available in terms of functionality, always have done and they still do it today. Whilst a few layers of wool tunic is perfectly serviceable it wouldn't have been the best option known or available and those who could afford such an item, either as a subarmalis or even as a seperate armour, might well have worn one.

Like so many things to do with this period between the late roman and early medieval it's not something that we can prove or disprove easily, but it's certainly something that has a place in interpretation. I certainly wouldn't expect to see someone at the lower end of the military structure in a subarmalis...but then I wouldn't expect to see them in a mail shirt either.


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Postby burton_kane » Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:21 am

thank you all for the help.

it has aload me to research the garment in question. and i've got a better idea of what i can and cannot wear under my armour.

the spaces alter depending of groups and write ups but the fabrics and layers remain the same near enough throughout.

so a have ago at making the garment and see what people think when its completted.



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Postby Medicus Matt » Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:00 pm

burton_kane wrote:thank you all for the help.

it has aload me to research the garment in question. and i've got a better idea of what i can and cannot wear under my armour.

the spaces alter depending of groups and write ups but the fabrics and layers remain the same near enough throughout.

so a have ago at making the garment and see what people think when its completted.


The ONLY description of what a late roman/early medieval underarmour may have consisted of is to be found in De Rebus Bellicis so you might want to take a look at it, or at least read Graham Sumner's 'Roman Military Clothing Vol 2' (better than the average Osprey book) which has a long discussion on the subject.
I've got a picture somewhere from a grave monument which seems to show a subarmalis of some sort, and what the stitching pattern was like, if you're interested?


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Postby Nigel » Mon Jan 14, 2008 2:47 pm

Desb reconstructed the subarmillis for graham based on hsi evidence and he gave her a box full of boxs an pieces

so there is plenty


There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

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Postby burton_kane » Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:43 pm

[quote="Medicus Matt
The ONLY description of what a late roman/early medieval underarmour may have consisted of is to be found in De Rebus Bellicis so you might want to take a look at it, or at least read Graham Sumner's 'Roman Military Clothing Vol 2' (better than the average Osprey book) which has a long discussion on the subject.
I've got a picture somewhere from a grave monument which seems to show a subarmalis of some sort, and what the stitching pattern was like, if you're interested?[/quote]


yes please a picture of the stitching pattern would be most helpful.

plus i must get back to you about a scabbard for my spatha. what info would you need.



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Postby Medicus Matt » Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:20 pm

burton_kane wrote:
plus i must get back to you about a scabbard for my spatha. what info would you need.


Ideally I'd need the sword to ensure a good fit. Then there's a checklist of stuff to go through depending on

a) What you want in terms of suspension methods and other metalwork
b) What sort of decoration you want
c) How much money you want to spend.

A sit down over a pint/cuppa is usually the best way of doing these things. :wink:


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Postby Medicus Matt » Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:55 pm

burton_kane wrote:

yes please a picture of the stitching pattern would be most helpful.


Here we go. From the tombstone of severius acceptus. Third century but it's the only picture I know of.

Ahhh...damn...you can't just upload piccies from your PC like you can ... over there.

PM me your email address and I'll post it to you.[/img]


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Postby lidimy » Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:54 pm

You can - just works differently - before posting hit 'browse' and select the file you want (:

And as long as it's not too big it works fine (:


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Postby Medicus Matt » Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:12 am

lidimy wrote:You can - just works differently - before posting hit 'browse' and select the file you want (:

And as long as it's not too big it works fine (:


Ah, thanks for that. :D
Attachments
acceptus.jpg


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Postby burton_kane » Tue Jan 15, 2008 2:16 pm

interesting should be fun to get as close to that as i can



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Postby Nigel » Tue Jan 15, 2008 2:29 pm

Not actually very hard or so Debs assures me


There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

burton_kane

Postby burton_kane » Tue Jan 15, 2008 3:06 pm

looks like its stitching is done as tubes mostly at least from the way it looks to me.



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Postby burton_kane » Tue Jan 15, 2008 3:20 pm

Medicus Matt wrote:Ideally I'd need the sword to ensure a good fit. Then there's a checklist of stuff to go through depending on

a) What you want in terms of suspension methods and other metalwork
b) What sort of decoration you want
c) How much money you want to spend.

A sit down over a pint/cuppa is usually the best way of doing these things. :wink:


sit down might be a bit hard as we are on different sides of the country if your profile is correct.
suspension belt or baldrick is fine both would be ideal,
decoration, metal work would be realy more in what is in keeping with the sword appearance.

cost well. john says your fair so give me an idea depending on styles that it could be in. and postage cost.

i can get a picture and all the spec for size of the sword. if that would be better.



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Postby Medicus Matt » Tue Jan 15, 2008 5:04 pm

burton_kane wrote:
sit down might be a bit hard as we are on different sides of the country if your profile is correct.
suspension belt or baldrick is fine both would be ideal,
decoration, metal work would be realy more in what is in keeping with the sword appearance.

cost well. john says your fair so give me an idea depending on styles that it could be in. and postage cost.

i can get a picture and all the spec for size of the sword. if that would be better.


Talk to Special, I think you'll find he's coming over to this side of the country in the next few weeks. If he is then give it to him. I CAN work to dimensions etc but it costs more (cos I have to make up a blank of the blade in wood).

Prices depend on how much work you want doing (ie how much decoration you want on the metalwork and leather, how tricky the fittings are etc etc)

Just to give you some examples:-

(I should think that someone will move this to the Traders section in a bit)
Attachments
paircomp.JPG
My 5th Danish scabbard. Ring mounts for baldrick suspension. About £120
Anna's 5th C scabbard with Nydam style slider. About £100
monkeyboycomp.jpg
5th Century scabbard made for Workmonkey. Based on Kraghul find, ring mounts for baldrick. Again, about £120.
simon.jpg
Later 13th Century style, three-split belted scabbard, made for the Baron, provided for price comparison and blatant advertising ;¬). About £100


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Postby zauberdachs » Tue Jan 15, 2008 5:31 pm

nice 13th century scabbard :)

good advertising.


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Postby burton_kane » Tue Jan 15, 2008 5:40 pm

the 5th Century scabbard you made for Workmonkey would be a ideal style. with a belt mount fitting added.

scary thing from the picture is the sheild in hte back ground is the same colour pattern that i use. so i guess the fates are telling me something.



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Postby WorkMonkey » Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:46 pm

I'm such a trend setter :roll:


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Little red monkey, acting so fidgety

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Postby Medicus Matt » Thu Jan 17, 2008 11:35 pm

WorkMonkey wrote:I'm such a trend setter :roll:


In that yours is just that little bit not quite as nice as mine? :wink:


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Postby WorkMonkey » Thu Jan 17, 2008 11:56 pm

Didn't you sell yours? Or are you making an uber new one?


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Postby Medicus Matt » Fri Jan 18, 2008 12:06 am

WorkMonkey wrote:Didn't you sell yours? Or are you making an uber new one?


Fletch has now got the one in the picture, which means that I have to make myself something even nicer to go with the new Heron spatha and new shiny hat that Thorkil's making for me. The hat's not as shiny as your's so the scabbard is going to have to be VERY nice.
There will be silvery bits involved.


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Postby WorkMonkey » Fri Jan 18, 2008 12:11 am

Silvery bits on the scabbard? or the helm?

What helm you havin?

are those meant to be tubes of padding running in alternating directions? presumably to make it easier to bend over in?


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Postby Medicus Matt » Fri Jan 18, 2008 12:20 am

WorkMonkey wrote:Silvery bits on the scabbard? or the helm?

What helm you havin?

are those meant to be tubes of padding running in alternating directions? presumably to make it easier to bend over in?


On the scabbard.
Having seen evidence that the Broa helmet is possibly mid-late VI century, I'm going for a shiny one of those. Not as flash as a Vendel or Valsgarde but a lot cheaper and I won't worry about getting it dinged like you will with yours. :wink:

I think that the tube under the armpits is a line of padding. It certainly works well no the one that Wendy made for me. As for the lower one, it LOOKs like it might be edging with pteruges hanging from it but it's not very clear.


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Postby egfroth » Fri Jan 18, 2008 11:36 pm

Matt, is that picture directly from the tombstone shown laid out flat or is it a re-draw by somebody later ? The reason I ask is that it seems unusual to see one of these things depicted separately, rather than being worn on the body.




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