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Something Viking types might appreciate

Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:04 am
by zauberdachs

Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:13 pm
by Neil of Ormsheim
:shock: :shock: :shock:
First of all, anyone standing with their shield in that on guard position is crying out for a cross strike from a spearman or being potted b an archer.

The second two parts also show why that first move is not advisable unless your opponent is either scripted to lose or is asleep :oops:

It may look pretty but that does not make it very good sense.

Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:40 pm
by Phil the Grips
It's not battlefield technique (very little historical martial arts is)- it's for use in monomachia-and certainly not for use until the shieldwall has collapsed and things have scattered somewhat if you do use it there.

An arrow's going to get you in most situations as it is, if there is a spear nearby then deal with it appropriately ( and using inside and outside wards works against spears in my experience too) and then use this style against another swordsman.

Context is everything and understanding that context and matching it to your style of combat is as much a part of studying martial arts as anything.

The makers recognise it is subtley flawed (deliberately so in parts so as to show technique clearly for the uninitiated so tempo and measure are exagerated) and have developed since under advisement from the originator of this theoretical model.

When performed well it works very well indeed and is far more likely than the "stand behind a door and bash away" that you see in reenactment as it matches the evidence ( a consistent record of iconography from ancient to modern showing similar attitudes towards shieldpaly) we have quite nicely.

The original article can be found in SPADA and SPADA II, both avaialble through Amazon.

Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:15 pm
by Neil of Ormsheim
I do not advocate "standing behind a door and bashing" but an on guard position like that is just sooooooooooo exposed. I, for one, seeing anyone trying this stance would say "Thank you very much" and job them. It may work as an awareness training exercise but that would, I suspect, be all.

Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:20 pm
by zauberdachs
I don't think it's a guard position.

It's from Talhoffer so it will be "flash thing you can do if you find a numpty doing this"

Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:24 pm
by Phil the Grips
The shield is not held entirely open when in ward but at roughly 70 degrees to the body (with 0 being flat against the chest, 90 being right angles to the body)- a most effective way of holding and using the shield while maintaining good cover of the inside or outside line. It is only fully to 90 when the shields are engaged and measure closed.

All a shield does is close two lines of attack at once so there is no way of closing all lines of attack at any one time with any guard so you "say "Thank you very much and job them" with anything an opponent presents with- this is simply a more effective way of doing it.

Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:48 pm
by Neil of Ormsheim
I don't think it's a guard position.

It's from Talhoffer so it will be "flash thing you can do if you find a numpty doing this"


Me too.

Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:58 pm
by Phil the Grips
zauberdachs wrote:It's from Talhoffer so it will be "flash thing you can do if you find a numpty doing this"
Have you read the article? I shall bring it along tonight as, if you have, you have completely failed to follow its corollary- the defence of a line using the "critical angle" is the essnce of the model.

Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:09 pm
by Zachos
You will note that everything after the first move is how to counter the first move. Therefore you could leave yourself open to entice someone into an easily counterable attack.

Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:18 pm
by zauberdachs
Phil the Grips wrote:
zauberdachs wrote:It's from Talhoffer so it will be "flash thing you can do if you find a numpty doing this"
Have you read the article? I shall bring it along tonight as, if you have, you have completely failed to follow its corollary- the defence of a line using the "critical angle" is the essnce of the model.
no, not seen any article. Is the above incorrect in some way?

Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:49 pm
by Phil the Grips
yes- shall explain in the pub. This is what an Artist would do, an Ignorant stands behind a static shield, and then use to defeat an Ignorant or another Artist.

Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:50 pm
by zauberdachs
Phil the Grips wrote:yes- shall explain in the pub. This is what an Artist would do, an Ignorant stands behind a static shield, and then use to defeat an Ignorant or another Artist.
oh indeed, but was the assessment of Talhoffer I gave above incorrect?

Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:53 pm
by Phil the Grips
I have little idea about Talhoffer but his model is sound for stechshild (?SP) using open and closed lines and not hiding behind a static door.

He assumes Artist vs Artist in the main since he is a monomachia man.

Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 5:04 pm
by zauberdachs
Phil the Grips wrote:I have little idea about Talhoffer but his model is sound for stechshild (?SP) using open and closed lines and not hiding behind a static door.

He assumes Artist vs Artist in the main since he is a monomachia man.
Definitely, however his work is not a cohesive combat guide but are rather a series of flash things you can do if you find a suitable numpty.

I can't find the image right now, I can bring it tonight, where he demonstrates swinging a longsword by the pommel to cut someone in the leg to break pflug. From that you can get the idea of what I'm talking about.

Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 5:17 pm
by Phil the Grips
That's cos his treatise isn't a "manual of how to" but an advert of "this is some of the cooler stuff that I can teach you if you employ me"- the equivalent of those little "three frame technique" strips you used to get in martial arts magazines.

I think we are arguing the same point from different sides- best done with a pint of spotty chuck in hand :)

Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 5:18 pm
by zauberdachs
indeed :)

Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 7:08 pm
by Aelfric
I've been useing this guard in single combat (as pointed out it's certainly not a battlefield stance) for a few years now and it certainly does not leave you at all exposed. It is a very, very effective guard that gives attacking options that you simply don't get with the standard shield flat across the body guard and while there are things I don't agree with in the interpretation shown on the film but it's a good demonstration.

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 12:46 pm
by zauberdachs
Phil the Grips wrote:
zauberdachs wrote:It's from Talhoffer so it will be "flash thing you can do if you find a numpty doing this"
Have you read the article? I shall bring it along tonight as, if you have, you have completely failed to follow its corollary- the defence of a line using the "critical angle" is the essnce of the model.
A fine set of articles, Mr Grips! Would you be interested in having a play around with this at some point in the new year?

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 12:52 pm
by Phil the Grips
Will do- have to track down my large shield which I haven't seen in 5 years first!

I have a very nice poleaxe primer sitting on my desk too...

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 12:55 pm
by zauberdachs
hmm... poleaxe would be a lot of fun. It's a dam shame there are only so many days in the week.

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:09 pm
by Phil the Grips
Give up your job and stop playing with poi- then you'll have loads of time!

or employ me so we can dick about in lunchhours ;)

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:13 pm
by zauberdachs
Ah, I have pretty much stopped the whole juggling nonsense in favour of sword nonsense. It'll have to be the job that goes...

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 5:54 pm
by zauberdachs

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:29 pm
by Neil of Ormsheim
Use number one myself on people who are either asleep or busy watching/fighting someone else. Don't use the others because we don't do head shots and even if not aiming for the head, those stikes would be too close for my comfort (as the aggresor)

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:00 pm
by Aelfric
Yep number one is good and number two works well with a slight adjustment, not sure about number three though, looks to vulnerable for my liking.

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:09 am
by zauberdachs
ha, when compared to the likes of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxMqoMA3 ... re=related
:)

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:48 pm
by zauberdachs