Celtic anthropomorphic swords

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Celtic Britain
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Celtic anthropomorphic swords

Postby Celtic Britain » Sat Feb 21, 2009 4:10 pm

Hello,

does someone know something on the development of the Celtic anthropomorphic hilted swords? They were used in the Hallstat and the La Tène period, was there a difference between the two periods?

Thanks in advance.


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Postby Alan_F » Sat Feb 21, 2009 7:18 pm

Completely off topic, but looking at your website, can you explain why you think there's such a thing as Irish Clans and are you seriously suggesting that there's a link between the Templars, the Battle of Bannockburn and Rosslyn Chapel and where on earth you are getting your information about Scottish history from?


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Postby Simon_Diment » Sat Feb 21, 2009 9:35 pm

Hallstadt - C8th-C6th BC or thereabouts
La Tene - cC5thBC-C1AD or thereabouts

So yes there were differences - early Hallstadt is Bronze Age while it petered out at the advent of the Iron Age, while La Tene is firmly withing the European Iron Age.


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Postby Celtic Britain » Sat Feb 21, 2009 10:29 pm

Alan_F wrote:Completely off topic, but looking at your website, can you explain why you think there's such a thing as Irish Clans and are you seriously suggesting that there's a link between the Templars, the Battle of Bannockburn and Rosslyn Chapel and where on earth you are getting your information about Scottish history from?


...

Clan Fagan, an IRISH clan

Most of the times we use history books. We have a minimum of three sources, most of them scientifical, with which we try to create a logical account. We do not claim there is a connection between Bannockburn and the Templars, we explore the possibilities.
It is probably that the Sinclair family the Sinclair family was a templar-family, originally of France. It is therefore likely that they shared their wisdom with their sons and grandson, the builder of Rosslyn.


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Postby Celtic Britain » Sat Feb 21, 2009 10:31 pm

Simon_Diment wrote:Hallstadt - C8th-C6th BC or thereabouts
La Tene - cC5thBC-C1AD or thereabouts

So yes there were differences - early Hallstadt is Bronze Age while it petered out at the advent of the Iron Age, while La Tene is firmly withing the European Iron Age.


Yep I know but I am more interested in the development of the hilt, was it in the Hallstatt period more realistic and in La Tène period more abstract or whatever? Do you know that?


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Postby Alan_F » Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:02 am

Celtic Britain wrote:
Alan_F wrote:Completely off topic, but looking at your website, can you explain why you think there's such a thing as Irish Clans and are you seriously suggesting that there's a link between the Templars, the Battle of Bannockburn and Rosslyn Chapel and where on earth you are getting your information about Scottish history from?


...

Clan Fagan, an IRISH clan




From an Irish historian: [url]http://homepage.eircom.net/~seanjmurphy/irhismys/maccarthy.htm
[url]

http://homepage.eircom.net/%7Eseanjmurphy/chiefs/

The whole 'Irish Clans' thing is a tourist trick, it's not something borne out by any reality in Irish history.

Most of the times we use history books. We have a minimum of three sources, most of them scientifical, with which we try to create a logical account. We do not claim there is a connection between Bannockburn and the Templars, we explore the possibilities.


I'll save you the trouble and point out that GWS Barrow, Richard Oram, Chris Brown and David Penman (four highly respected Scottish historians) have never found a link or anything to support the idea that the Templars were welcome in Scotland following their dissolution, they have however found evidence of at least one Templar Knight fighting on the side of Edward I at Falkirk. The authors of Holy Blood and Holy Grail tried for what is the most tenuous link I have ever seen, one which has never stood up to the simplest of research on Scottish history of the period.


It is probably that the Sinclair family the Sinclair family was a templar-family, originally of France. It is therefore likely that they shared their wisdom with their sons and grandson, the builder of Rosslyn.


There's no evidence that they were and even if they were, what's the 'great wisdom' that they shared? Don't annoy French kings? The chapel at Rosslyn is a fine example of a 15th centiry church and it is beautifully decorated. So are many others of this period, none of which claim some tenuous (at best) link to a Knightly Ordo that was destroyed over 100 years before it was built.

If you have a genuine interest in Scottish history, I'm more than happy to talk about it. But I have no interest in those who want to believe in daft myths (which don't even have a basis in reality) that detract from the achievements of the Scotland her people.


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Postby Celtic Britain » Sun Feb 22, 2009 11:22 am

If you have a genuine interest in Scottish history, I'm more than happy to talk about it. But I have no interest in those who want to believe in daft myths (which don't even have a basis in reality) that detract from the achievements of the Scotland her people.


Sure, but not in this topic.


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Postby Simon_Diment » Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:36 pm

Celtic Britain
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 10:31 pm Post subject:
Simon_Diment wrote:
Hallstadt - C8th-C6th BC or thereabouts
La Tene - cC5thBC-C1AD or thereabouts

So yes there were differences - early Hallstadt is Bronze Age while it petered out at the advent of the Iron Age, while La Tene is firmly withing the European Iron Age.


Yep I know but I am more interested in the development of the hilt, was it in the Hallstatt period more realistic and in La Tène period more abstract or whatever? Do you know that?


I'm sorry but I'm sure you're more than capable of carrying out your own research for the details and I'm not going to do it for you. :D

Try looking at Oakeshott's 'The Archaeology of Weapons' in which he covers the Hallstadt and La Tene periods, including any influences that played on their stylistic development or they had on others.

The early Hallstadt pommels don't appear to be anthropomorphic initially and it is only later that the hilts adopt the splayed guards and pommels that we associate with the 'Celtic' warrior of popular imagery.

On the other hand you also have to take skeuomorphism into consideration when looking at this migration period of materials - on examining the development of the axe head it is a clear indicator of this tendency. One material being cast or worked into the form of the preceding technologies equivalent item.

There was an iron knife found in Tutankhamen's tomb that mimicked the appearance of a bronze tool, but the innovation of this new material was deemed of a significant status to accompany the king on his journey even in such a humble form as a knife.
Last edited by Simon_Diment on Sun Feb 22, 2009 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Postby Brendan C » Sun Feb 22, 2009 2:11 pm

Celtic Britain,

Would strongly advise that you follow Simon's advice and take a look at Oakeshott's book; it really is worthwhile.

I also have to say that Alan is quite right; the Clann system for ireland has no basis in reality. The term used was Tuatha (pron 'too - ha) meaning 'tribe'; the term Clann was used in the more immediate term for family or children I think, I'm not a gaelic speaker but I think I'm right. A couple of the Tuathas did incorportate the term Clann into their names, but no more than that.

Brendan C



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Postby Alan_F » Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:11 pm

Celtic Britain wrote:
If you have a genuine interest in Scottish history, I'm more than happy to talk about it. But I have no interest in those who want to believe in daft myths (which don't even have a basis in reality) that detract from the achievements of the Scotland her people.


Sure, but not in this topic.


Which is why I put in a piece here: http://livinghistory.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?p=234519#234519


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Postby Andy » Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:06 pm

Hi Celtic Britain,

Come over to this site http://www.kelticos.org/forum/index.php

People ARE actually friendly and helpful there.


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Postby m300572 » Wed Mar 11, 2009 2:39 pm

As well as Oakshott, have a look for Stead's Iron Age Swords and Scabbards. Not sure if it only covers British examples or is pan-European but it might answer some of the queries.

And beware of using "Celtic" - its a very debateable term in archaeological thought.


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Postby Flesh&Blood » Wed Mar 11, 2009 3:09 pm

m300572 wrote:
And beware of using "Celtic" - its a very debateable term in archaeological thought.


Nicely put, but very pertinant point.




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