Saxon embroidery- quick question for anyone who has done any

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Random Mumblings
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Saxon embroidery- quick question for anyone who has done any

Post by Random Mumblings »

I'm embroidering a panel for a kirtle neckband. Pattern is my own design in the style of some 9th century manuscripts. Just a quick question really. Would the background area of the design be left plain with the fabric as background, or would the design have been completely infilled, like a tapestry? Have done the pattern on unbleached linen, but I'm considering infilling the lot as I think it would look better, but just want to check that isn't completely wrong for the period.

Thanks.

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nathan
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Post by nathan »

I think there is an article in "Medieval Clothing and Textiles 1" edited by Robin Netherton & Gale R. Owen-Crocker, that may be of interest to you.

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Post by Random Mumblings »

nathan wrote:I think there is an article in "Medieval Clothing and Textiles 1" edited by Robin Netherton & Gale R. Owen-Crocker, that may be of interest to you.

N.
Quite possibly, but could you let me know what it says LOL as I don't have the book to hand. Don't really have a spare £30 at the moment to buy it and the librar doesn't stock it in this county.

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Post by Tuppence »

if it can wait for a week and a bit will let you know (or can copy the relevant chapter and send it to you)
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Post by Maerwynn »

Speak to Chloe and especially Fish on the authenti-team in the Vike - PM me for email addresses.

I suspect the answer is to leave it blank. What stitch are you using?

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Post by Nigel »

Rumbly discover the joys of inter library loans

or the British Library

I would suggest waiting for Debs to copy you the relevant bits a solid source
There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

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Post by Random Mumblings »

Maerwynn wrote:Speak to Chloe and especially Fish on the authenti-team in the Vike - PM me for email addresses.
Maerwynn
That's odd, I wasn't aware Fish was on the authenti-team....she's in our group and all, you'd have thought I'd have heard. :shock:

Tuppence, thanks for the offer of the copy of the relevant pages, that would be really helpful. Am more than willing to cover the cost of the copying and postage etc, let me know.

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Post by Tuppence »

nah - s'ok can copy at home and won't cost that much to send.

will need you to opm me your address though :lol:

my hunch, btw is to leave the background blank, but that could be completely wrong, as it would have been filled in in the very slightly later opus embroidery...
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Post by WorkMonkey »

's hard to know how it was done, as far as i'm aware there are only 3 examples of embroidery that have ever been found in an English secular pre-conquest scenario, two from womens graves and one from a males, two of these weren't even deemed to be from clothing, one being found in a relic box, and another adhering to an iron knife, all done in fine ply yarn, wool at sutton hoo (Mound14) and Kempston and possibly silk at Kingsworthy, executed in stem stitch which can almost become satin stitch in dense areas. Running stitch used for outlines at Sutton Hoo, there are lots more examples from Royal and Religious sites which suggests to me that embroidery was reserved for the big wigs, considering the frequency on which tablet weaves survive in "Folk" graves, albeit in bad conditon, and for only 3 examples of embroidery to remain, and for the only one to be identifiable as on clothing coming from a royal grave..seems abit sussed. Other items include some church vestments late 8thC from Durham, fragments from a 9th/10thC Royal residence at Llan-Gors crannog in wales, there's a few more from the continent, but again, these are all in very high status graves, ie. Gold work cuffs of Arnegunde, wife of Clothair I buried at Saint-Denis, Paris, the tabard-tunic of queen Bathilde, which actually has a golden cross embroidered on the chest with a series of roundalls around it, the Bjerringhok princes tunic and cloak. There's a good explanation of all the basic stitches and how they're used here: http://www.sca.org.au/collegium/notes/j ... ndepth.pdf It's a pdf so you'll need Adobe Reader or the HTML version here http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:Q5 ... cd=1&gl=uk though theres no pictures with that,

Split stitch is really easy to do and follows curves great, you can then fill in the pattern with a finer ply doing the same stitch, if you were doing wavey vines or something, or just leave it hollow, doing geometric shapes on a coloured border also looks nice, as to your original question, you dont fill in the background, only the body of your shape. If you're applying it to a seperate colour border, then you want the different colour to show through, if you're applying it straight to the base material, then you just apply the pattern.

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Post by Maerwynn »

Aha, Rumbly, I'm getting closer to working out who you are!

Fisc isn't full a authenti-team member though she was in training for it. She's definitely attached to the team as a consultant for late Saxon embroidery though - I'm not sure how official this is.

Workmonkey: :shock: I read that section of Walton-Rogers' book over breakfast this morning!

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Post by WorkMonkey »

was the first section I read 'cus I wanted to know how relevent embroidery was 8) very useful book.
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Post by Random Mumblings »

Maerwynn wrote:Aha, Rumbly, I'm getting closer to working out who you are!

Maerwynn
You say it like it's some great mystery :lol: :shock: 8)

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Post by m300572 »

Penelope Walton Rogers book on Anglo Saxon clothing has discussions of embroidery in it. I haven't had a proper read of it yet so I don't know how much detail.
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Post by Tuppence »

just one note on the stuff posted by wm - good site btw, although I'd question some of it being around for 'the whole of the sca period' it is fine for the earlier stuff.

seems to have got a bit confused between couching of metal threads and surface couching using just thread - the techniques are actually quite distinctly different (see lena's lovely embroidery in the creative section for a good idea of surface couching)

and I'd also be unsure about using split stitch as an outlining stitch. it would work, but it's not been used like that in any of the original embroidered fragments I've seen. in those it's always been used for filling big areas of colour.
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Post by Tuppence »

and especially Fish on the authenti-team in the Vike
just a thought.... wasn't this the silly woman who said that pink acrylic nails were ok for hastings... :shock: :?
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Post by WorkMonkey »

Tuppence wrote:
and I'd also be unsure about using split stitch as an outlining stitch. it would work, but it's not been used like that in any of the original embroidered fragments I've seen. in those it's always been used for filling big areas of colour.
what would be better for outlining?
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Post by Thorlak »

There is of course also the fine embroidery that was found in the tomb o St Cuthbert thats always one to look at :shock:
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Post by WorkMonkey »

Thats the ecclesiastical vestments from the Durham I mentioned.
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Post by Tuppence »

for outlining I'd say a back or stem stitch (probably stem). but that's wothout checking (she qualifies :lol: )
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Post by Tuppence »

or chain stitch.

but probably stem...
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Post by Karen Larsdatter »

Thorlak wrote:There is of course also the fine embroidery that was found in the tomb o St Cuthbert thats always one to look at :shock:
http://medieval.webcon.net.au/extant_st_cuthbert.html

For another 9th century Anglo-Saxon embroidery, see http://medieval.webcon.net.au/extant_maaseik.html

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Post by purple peril »

Maerwynn wrote:Fisc isn't full a authenti-team member though she was in training for it. She's definitely attached to the team as a consultant for late Saxon embroidery though - I'm not sure how official this is.
It isn't, but here's not the place to discuss why.

...and yes Debs, she is the same person who said pink acrylic nails were fine for Hastings and is now also trying to tell people that red isn't an authentic colour for the Vike...and because she has managed to convince a lot of people she is an authenticity officer through sheer force of will, some folks actually believe her.

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Post by Nigel »

purple peril wrote:
Maerwynn wrote:Fisc isn't full a authenti-team member though she was in training for it. She's definitely attached to the team as a consultant for late Saxon embroidery though - I'm not sure how official this is.
It isn't, but here's not the place to discuss why.

...and yes Debs, she is the same person who said pink acrylic nails were fine for Hastings and is now also trying to tell people that red isn't an authentic colour for the Vike...and because she has managed to convince a lot of people she is an authenticity officer through sheer force of will, some folks actually believe her.
Thought so

Red YFW

So now can I make her go away please
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Post by Tuppence »

...and yes Debs, she is the same person who said pink acrylic nails were fine for Hastings and is now also trying to tell people that red isn't an authentic colour for the Vike...and because she has managed to convince a lot of people she is an authenticity officer through sheer force of will, some folks actually believe her.
thought so :roll:

madder is clearly an invention of our fevered minds....



btw - was flicking as I copied stuff for random, and buttonhole stitch (or probably more accurately, closely worked blanket stitch)
is used for outlining on some of the durham stuff.
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Post by MedicKitten »

madder is clearly an invention of our fevered minds....
Wow! we ROCK at mass-hallucinations!
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