14th cen kids and colours

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christine303
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14th cen kids and colours

Postby christine303 » Tue May 01, 2007 9:50 pm

hi all,
need help with kids clothes for early 14th(c1314). boy age 12 girl age 14, she wants to be boy doesnt want dresses. was thinking t-tunic shape top and straight trousers under it(not wanting anything fancy got 4 costumes to make). would this be alright. i,m going for sally pointer,s early dress. also not sure about colours son wants yellow top blue bottoms daughter wants red and blue

thanks
christine


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PaulMurphy
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Postby PaulMurphy » Tue May 01, 2007 10:43 pm

Have a look at

http://www.historicenterprises.com/cart ... =451&c=137

for an example.

Basically, the ideal is to have braes, split hose and a plain linen shirt, with an overtunic, and some turnshoes.

Colours are subjective - keep it muted and most colours are OK, so think madder, woad, weld and saffron and you won't go far wrong. The underclothes should be plain undyed and unbleached linen. Avoid black and darker shades, as they'd be very expensive to produce in this period, and unlikely to be "wasted" on children except for those of the high nobility.

Paul.


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christine303
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Postby christine303 » Wed May 02, 2007 12:06 am

hi paul
thanks for help

christine


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sally
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Postby sally » Wed May 02, 2007 6:40 am

At that date a lot of people wear brighter hoods and hats, so if they fancy something in a colour a bit high for the portayal you have in mind, you could always make them fairly plain drab outfits but give them a hood each in lovely bright colours.

One other good rule of thumb, again with fairly 'ordinary' people is to make most of the clothing in 'undyed shades' (think of those lovely brown woollens Stuart Peachey sells) then add just one garment in a brighter colour. Helps stop the whole ensemble looking like jesters gear



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Postby Nigel » Wed May 02, 2007 11:18 am

But unless you are rockafella no saffron please


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PaulMurphy
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Postby PaulMurphy » Wed May 02, 2007 1:26 pm

Nigel wrote:But unless you are rockafella no saffron please


Unless of course you use Solorina crocea lichen as the dye source, which produces a yellow which has come to be called "saffron" over time, but which is both easier to produce and more abundant - see

http://web.uvic.ca/~stucraw/part2NX.html#Lichens_N-X

for a citation. This has been reported as being common in Scotland during the C13/14th and later.

Saffron (i.e. the stamen of the crocus flower) is indeed very expensive, but became very popular in England as a result of its colour-fastness, hence the growth of Saffron Walden as a growing centre...

Paul.


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calicocloth
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Postby calicocloth » Wed May 02, 2007 2:43 pm

Sally - do you have a contact or web site for Stuart Peachey?



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ViscontesseD'Asbeau
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Postby ViscontesseD'Asbeau » Wed May 02, 2007 3:36 pm

The most common colour found on medieval sites, when chemically analysed, is apparently red (from madder). Some modern dyers get very muddy brick reds from madder - but look at any medieval painting and you'll see how garish their colours were and how a good dyer can get a bright, clear red.

One look at this lady's site:

http://www.adyersmanual.co.uk/author.html

Shows you colours that would work for any period of history, until 1861 when chemical dyes came in.

Weld was the cheapest and most reliable yellow. A simple weld dye using the most readily available mordant gives you a clean, acid yellow.

Woad blue was more a skilled process but as dye baths were used to exhaust point, the palest of pale blues, a colour they often called 'plunket', is quite acceptable. Again, it can be bright and un-muddy.

Natural coloured wools are something early farmers didn't look for, or breed for so the 'natural' earthy tones so popular since the 70s are not always a good bet. In the past as now, these might be used more often for blankets, etc rather than clothing. Poorer people throughout history were often more likely to buy second (or tenth) hand clothing, than make it themselves from ugly/inferior cloth. Although things like 17thC soldier's breeches, made en masse, may well have been natural grey. But look at the sources. You see more people in poke your eyes out Barbie pink and acid house yellow, than you see wearing dull colours.

Analysis also shows that sometimes greys etc were overdyed with a good strong madder.

The 3 primary colours are therefore anyone's best bet. When you're getting into greens, etc you're into a process called 'overdyeing' - which was more expensive and time consuming, as the cloth would be dyed say, blue and then again, yellow. Of the primary colours, red and yellow were the cheapest and most readily available.

But it's a misnomer to think people in the past walked round in blankets. Why would they? Even before the intensive 18thC selective breeding of sheep, it's though farmers would go for white and as fine as they could get, rather than coarse and grey or brown. It's why the natural coloured fleeces to this day often come from the rougher, uplands sheep or the 'primitive' breeds like Soay.

We might think certain things are tasteless. Medieval mindset appears to have been quite different. Five minutes in the local art gallery or a look online will show you what I mean!

:D

P.S: Not sure if Peachey's made it into the 21stC with a website? Maybe. Just wanted to add, his stuff is great - the best - and his books are a very reliable source of info. His hand dyed cloth is expensive but worth every penny, and I'm a dyer of nearly 30 yrs experience but even I'd buy Stuart's stuff (if I could afford it!)



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KezT
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Postby KezT » Wed May 02, 2007 5:29 pm

regarding <i>what</i> they should wear, children just wore scaled down versions of adults garb as far as we can tell (babies in shift, and boys/girls the same while very young, but at the age you're talking about.....) So they need whatever the blokes in your group wear. I've got a few nice picturs of children at home, but not sure if any are online - I'll see what I can do.



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JC Milwr
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Postby JC Milwr » Wed May 02, 2007 6:59 pm

ViscontesseD'Asbeau wrote:The most common colour found on medieval sites, when chemically analysed, is apparently red (from madder). Some modern dyers get very muddy brick reds from madder - but look at any medieval painting and you'll see how garish their colours were and how a good dyer can get a bright, clear red.



This is a false conclusion. Paint and dye are completely different things. I'm not saying dyes couldn't be bright, but assuming they are because a painting said so isn't valid. Paint was generally made from some fairly nasty chemicals which are a lot more intense than their dye equivalents.


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ViscontesseD'Asbeau
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Postby ViscontesseD'Asbeau » Thu May 03, 2007 12:54 am

assuming they are because a painting said so isn't valid.


No, but when you've done it for years and seen with your own eyes what colours you get - that is valid, and that's what I was talking about. As a corollary of that, it's then noticeable that the paintings (and illuminated MS, etc) are, indeed, accurate representations of 'gettable' medieval colours. No supposition. Hard fact! I do it all the time, dye with various traditional dyestuffs!

Have been dyeing with 'medieval' dyestuffs for many years. Yes they are indeed that bright. The artists were accurate portraying colours from dyestuffs, using their pigments. Why assume artists in the past were so 'primitive' they couldn't accurately represent what they saw? I can dye any colour I have seen on a painting and I'm sure very many experienced dyers can do the same, too. No big deal. :lol:

Again, if you look at the link to Jill Goodwin's site, the pics of her with her wools show you precisely the colours you will see in medieval art. Pigment or dyes, the skilled craftsperson can get those colours. I think a lot of people are confusing the 1970s' 'Goodlife' concept of dyeing muddy colours with the reality. Also hasn't been helped by so called 'experts' illustrating their books with pics of decidedly brick reds for madder, or rather flat blues for woad... Jill Goodwin's book is one I recommend because it shows you achievable colours that are bright, and reliable. For the Original Poster, it would give an at-a-glance illustration of what were medieval colours, done by someone skilled.

To the untrained eye, those colours are mimicked by some modern chemical dyes - well enough for the O.P to seek out some convincing materials.

:lol:

Pigments and dyes are different - yes, even I know that much, only spent nearly 30 years working with colour, doh! ... But you don't see medieval pictures of people with purple faces because they couldn't 'do' flesh-tones, eh?

Apparently some of the blues in medieval MS were thought to contain various exotic ingredients but chemical analysis has shown - they are in fact, also woad. So it's a bit of an outmoded view to imagine pigments and dyes are always so different - they're not always based on exotic minerals found in one cave in Tuscany, kind of thing - romantic though that idea is.

As for sinister chemicals - medieval dyers were known to have recourse to them, too, to get a certain colour.

As an experienced dyer, I know I can make any colour I see on a picture of medieval clothing - and so no, sorry, you're absolutely wrong to assume I'm making assumptions on the strength of paintings. Paintings merely back up pragmatic experience.



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JC Milwr
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Postby JC Milwr » Thu May 03, 2007 2:32 am

Sorry, didn't mean to teach grandma eggs sucking ;)

It was the phrase

"but look at any medieval painting and you'll see how garish their colours were and how a good dyer can get a bright, clear red"

which misled me.

I do still hold that not everyone, especially the poor, would wear as many bright colours as we see in the re-enactment field. If the clothing was, as you've said, handed down, it'd surely be faded and muted. People who can barely afford to feed their children aren't going to be wasting money re-dying clothes in bright, expensive dyes.

Heck, my older kit is faded, and that's done with chemical "fast" dyes.

Weld is cheap and easy, so yellow, okay. The time taken to get a woad dye makes it a luxury to the peasant class (although the original poster didn't say what class!). Anything needing a mordant is going to cost more, so muted is best for that "handed down" look.


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Karen Larsdatter
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Re: 14th cen kids and colours

Postby Karen Larsdatter » Thu May 03, 2007 2:37 am

More examples of children's clothing from illustrations & artifacts at http://www.larsdatter.com/children.htm including a few examples from the first half of the 14th century.



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ViscontesseD'Asbeau
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Postby ViscontesseD'Asbeau » Thu May 03, 2007 9:57 am

Them's interesting pictures, Karen.

I wonder at what point in history children's clothes became 'kiddies' rather than 'mini adult'?



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Alice the Huswyf
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Postby Alice the Huswyf » Thu May 03, 2007 10:33 pm

During the age of sensibility when younger boys progressed from frocks to skeleton suits and thence to breeches.



christine303
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14th cen

Postby christine303 » Wed May 09, 2007 11:17 am

thanks everyone for your help. the family are all measured colours picked(that was an event in its self) and hopefully the cutting begins tonight

thanks again
i love this site everyone is so helpfull

christine


"in my end is my beginning"

drery10
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Re: 14th cen kids and colours

Postby drery10 » Sun Jul 23, 2017 2:29 pm

Hello
That all are vintage and royal dresses.




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