Braiding for tricorn and bicorn hats

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Karina
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Braiding for tricorn and bicorn hats

Post by Karina »

I am a milliner and have been making hats for a while now, I am particularly interested in making historical hats, although I usually make 1920's to 1940's hats I have made a few bicorn and tricorn's (just for the hell of it :D) but need advice on braiding etc, I have seen some gold braid for sale on the Chimera website and wondered if this would be suitable? I have been to the hat museum in Stockport in the hopes of getting a look at what was used then but I just couldn't make it out.

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Neibelungen
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Post by Neibelungen »

The braiding really depends on the rank/class of the owner.

Most soldiers hats were laced with worsted or linen tapes, while officer and some civilian styles used metal laces on dress hats and silk binding on undress hats.

The actual weave on metal (and modern synthetics) laces varies considerably although many of the modern laces are close, they are not entirely identical to period weaves, with most modern ones being patterned from Victorian and Edwardian designs. Generally 1 1/2" to 2" wide laces were used on brim bindings

B/S (Bias & Stand) or Oakleaf, (on the Chimera site) were styles used from about 1760 onwards (B&S was Royal Navy lace from the late 1760's untill the 1798 regulations reintroduced Vellum and check patterns. The classic portrait of Captain cook shows this type of lace).

Oakleaf doesn't make it's appearance untill 1785, which is the earliest I've seen in a portrait, and the modern pattern dates from 1830. It is however close to some styles of early jaquarded paterns used.

Most of the earlier designes are no longer produced, especially those in silver as there is no modern demand for it in military uniforms.

Plain taby, herringbone and simple bias weaves were the most common, and a strange pattern that you see on a lot of polypropylene tapes today were the usual ( kind of horizontal baring/crease effect). Officers would have matched their lace pattern to the regimental standard, while civilian would have been whatever took their fancy and was available.

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Karina
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Post by Karina »

Thank you :D , I have been looking at Navy laces on the internet and thought the Oakleaf (bias & stand) would be OK. I'll use it on a bicorn. For reenactment are only silk or linen acceptable as brim bindings? and would petersham be Ok for larp? Sorry to be picking your brains but I don't seem to be able to find many books on the subject :oops: , all the hat books I have are for modern designs.

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Neibelungen
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Post by Neibelungen »

Mostly it depends on what the customer is looking for, plus what they can afford.

In general, mostly they just want a metalic lace binding, so any type of braid will be acceptable. It's only when they really require something specific you'll have to look a bit deeper. Plus not many are going to want to pay upwards of £40 meter to get something exactly right.

While petersham (the synthetic version) isn't strictly correct, very few are quite that fussy. It a case of either right weave and wrong material, or wrong weave and right material. Plus silk braids wide enough are hard to come by in a decent weight.

Generally speaking I tend to put on a linen or worsted braiding as a default, and a synthetic in place of silk for officers. If they want otherwise it's an extra cost they can decide upon.

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Post by GinaB »

lot of polypropylene tapes today were the usual ( kind of horizontal baring/crease effect).
I'm not sure, but I think you might mean what's today called 'grosgrain'. [This is so not my period, :wink: ].It's actually a plain tabby weave, over 1 under 1, but because ribbons are woven narrowly and tight, this is what you achieve with fine silk. You can occasionally - if you are very lucky, find silk grosgrain ribbon (I once saw some on eBay...), but most often it is synthetic to mimic silk. Its a little stiffer than real silk, but if the colour is chosen well, its a pretty good match. [/i]

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Post by Tuppence »

petersham is incredibly similar to grosgrain, but stiffer, and heavier

also tends to be synthetic these days, unless you're very lucky, and can still find cotton, or get some old stuff.
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Neibelungen
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Post by Neibelungen »

I'm not sure, but I think you might mean what's today called 'grosgrain'
.

I know what you mean, but it's not exactly a grosgrain weave.

If you look at a lot of 17th C portrait, Dobson being a good example, you'll see the gold braids have this strange banded effect. When you compare that to surviving examples it's not a grosgrain weave.

I think the effect comes from a simple over and under weaving (tabby ? ) but the warp and weft are of very diferent weights. This gives it a strange pattern, close to grosgrain, but not quite either.

I'll have to dig out a couple of weaving books and see if I can find some examples, though somewhere I've some photos of these early types of braid.

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Post by Tuppence »

If you look at a lot of 17th C portrait, Dobson being a good example, you'll see the gold braids have this strange banded effect. When you compare that to surviving examples it's not a grosgrain weave.
petersham ain't metallic
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Neibelungen
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Post by Neibelungen »

It's not a very clear example of the type of braid you find on early 17th C, but if you look around you'll find several other examples of it.

http://www.tate.org.uk/servlet/ViewWork ... view=image

It's styled close to a modern grosgrain weave, though I suspect it may well be partly woven in some way closer to a bobin lace.

In modern braidmaking terms it's similar to a style known as tinsel lace (ie, often woven with a metal ribbon rather than just pure threads)

It could well be that the longitudinal threads are metal and that there's a substantial linen or silk thread or gimp weaving back and forth horizontally.

You do occasionally come across a diagonal bias weave (french braid or Hercules) used in brim bindings, though this is more common on narrower wears and is rarely above 1" width.

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Post by Sophia »

Having unravelled small amounts of various grosgrain and petersham of various ages in the past to investigate their construction IIRC I came across the following:

Heavy grosgrain/Petersham: 1/1 where the weft thread is heavier than weave. Particularly noticeable on old cotton petersham.

Grosgrain with decorative looped edge: 1/1 where the warp/weft are equal but the weft went through the same shed twice being looped over a couple of edge threads (hope this makes sence). Only ever seen this once on a lovely old moire silk bookmark which I can't locate at the moment interesting bits and bobs box has done a dissappearing act.

Fine grosgrain: 1/1 where warp and weft are equal. This is what turns up on silk grosgrain if you can find it and on all the synthetic versions I have used.

I am particularly interested in this as I have purchased a reproduction lap loom so I can take up weaving again and intend to weave tabby ribbons, initially in linen and later in silk and worsted. Maybe if I get very good I might try some metallic stuff.

Sophia :D

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Post by GinaB »

you'll see the gold braids have this strange banded effect.
Ah! I didn't realise we were taking about metallic braids only. Sorry! :)

I think the effect comes from a simple over and under weaving (tabby ? ) but the warp and weft are of very diferent weights. This gives it a strange pattern, close to grosgrain, but not quite either.
Yes, tabby is over 1 under 1 - as you say, it is the different weights which achieve a different look - and also why using names for styles of weaving can become difficult if its not based on numbers. Ninya Mikhaila's Tudor Tailor, for instance, has grosgrain as using a larger weft thread, but as Sophia says, a fine modern (ish) grosgrain ribbon, is 1/1 with the same weight threads. (here's one I recently did on an inkle loom -http://www.et-tu.com/ginb/gallery/g1.html

I think it may be the same sort of situation as with the term 'tinsel' lace. That it is more likely to be that the materials are metallic, (or mainly), than a weave type. I agree, there do seem to be alot of metallic lace and braids which seem to have been made using bobbin or perhaps other braiding techniques - as opposed to being woven on looms. But I haven't looked at nearly enough to say much on this!

[added]
I had another thought last night - the 'odd' ridged pattern you're talking about seeing in paintings could be from brocaded ribbons.

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Post by Miel »

Katrina,

I don't know if you will be at the NLHF this weekend but, if you are, come and see TJ and myself on the Excalibur Artifacts stand.

We always have a good selection of high quality hand woven braid in a variety of materials and quite a lot in fine silk.

We also make small tape or box looms as well as inkle looms if you are interested in making your own braid, as well as a large range of heddles, beaters, and shuttles.

We aslo demonstrate a mass of other cheap and easy to learn braiding and cording techniques that you might find useful if you really want to get in to this kind of thing.
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Karina
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Post by Karina »

I am agog at the amount of knowledge you all have :shock: I will try to get to the NLHF this weekend but I am looking to buy braid rather than weave it myself it all sounds far too complicated, if i do I will certainly say hello.

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Post by lidimy »

Karina wrote:I am agog at the amount of knowledge you all have :shock: I will try to get to the NLHF this weekend but I am looking to buy braid rather than weave it myself it all sounds far too complicated, if i do I will certainly say hello.
You haven't seen anything yet, my dear, I am still left feeling shocked by the information that is packed into these lovely people's heads :D Forget reading a dictionary before you go to bed - just read a thread on LH :D

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Neibelungen
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Post by Neibelungen »

I'll be helping out (covering for coffee breaks) on the ages of Elegance stall if you want to drop by and say hello.

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Karina
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Post by Karina »

I hope to see you there.

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