English National Costume?

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Laffin Jon Terris
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English National Costume?

Postby Laffin Jon Terris » Sun Oct 02, 2005 1:43 pm

Here's one, any suggestions for a 'national costume'?

I appreciate that its a bit stereotypical, but most countries have their national dress that they use for special occasions etc. What should ours be?

I can't seem to find any real suggestions- (beefeater doesn't count because its only for beefeaters!)

What do you think?



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Postby guthrie » Sun Oct 02, 2005 6:14 pm

An England footie shirt?

I cant think of anything else. Just about every bit of "English" clothing has only been really common amongst part of the population and as far as I am aware they all lack a certain unifying ideal like you have with kilts up here.



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Postby Dave B » Sun Oct 02, 2005 6:31 pm

from a comedic point of view I would say pinstripe and bowler hat, although as course as that's only for southerners it is no more valid that a flat cap and a whippit. But then the kilt is pretty much made up national dress so I don't suppose it follows.


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Postby guthrie » Sun Oct 02, 2005 7:41 pm

Its kind of hard to explain, but basically the current kilt outfit is based upon definite ancestry, albeit much of it refined in an artistic sense, from actual working ancestors. Then, what happened was cultural, rather than fashionable, if you see what I mean. It was taken up as a national dress by the Victorians, and although fell into abeyance after WW2, has become so widespread as a "Scottish" thing, that a large number of men have one. Kilts are sufficiently non-everyday that they dont threaten or denote a definite class or situation. Plus due to population movement, possibly most of Scotland has some Highland ancestry.

Whereas in England, what kind of clothing has a good romantic history, makes the wearer look good, can be claimed by most people as part of their ancestors stuff, yet is sufficiently apart from modern wranglings to not be threatening?



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Postby gregory23b » Mon Oct 03, 2005 8:52 am

guthrie
"Whereas in England, what kind of clothing has a good romantic history, makes the wearer look good, can be claimed by most people as part of their ancestors stuff, yet is sufficiently apart from modern wranglings to not be threatening?"

er, none?

Hard question Guthrie


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Postby guthrie » Mon Oct 03, 2005 9:45 am

I like asking hard questions. Asking the right questions is really hard. Does anyone disagree with my diagnosis of the popularity of the kilt?



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Postby Tod » Mon Oct 03, 2005 12:24 pm

Funny I got asked this (actually I should say challenged) about this last week. The comment made to me was along the lines of how could the modern kilt be classed as traditional by all Scots ( I think some one was having a dig). Their comment was that it was Victorian and should only be worn by people in the Highlands.
After the 1745 rising the whole of Highland dress was banned including tartan. Some 20 odd years later this ban was lifted and even in London there was debate by absent Scots to how the "new look" Highland dress should be styled, although they wanted to stay with the Highland appearance prior to the '45. I don't know who if any one made the decision but essentially they followed the military. The Highland Regts of course weren't banned from wearing what had started off as their own cloths (of course the military issued kit shortly after the formation of the Highland Regts). So what followed was the kilt (thought to have been invented by 2 Englishmen in 1728, but now thought to be at least 20 years older). The short coat, modified to be more clean cut, the fly plaid, and the diced hose, and of coarse the waistcoat.
By the time the Victorians came along this basic style of Highland dress had become some what of a standard, in particular with the military, it quickly spread as it was promoted by Sir Walter Scott and of course Queen Victoria etc. Since then it's been tidied up and now we have the fly plaid complete with MacHalfords tassels, I'm not sure how that happened!
My thoughts on it's popularity are similar to Guthrie. Although I would add that I think it may be a bit of the rebel in us saying you might have tried to grind us down but we've still got the kilt etc. The other thing is that unlike many other national costumes that restrict your movements (I lived in Japan, work it out) the kilt doesn't, ask those like Martin C and White Wolf about their modern kilts.



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English national costume

Postby nutmeg_bec » Mon Oct 03, 2005 6:23 pm

You could always do what us Welsh did, choose an historical era and wear clothes from then (ie: early 19th Century, in our case)! Hmmm.... I can see a few arguements forming on this one, considering what our shared hobby is...!

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Postby Dave B » Mon Oct 03, 2005 9:21 pm

guthrie wrote:I like asking hard questions. Asking the right questions is really hard. Does anyone disagree with my diagnosis of the popularity of the kilt?


Yep, I do. I think it just shows a lack of national confidence, having to wear something that says 'look i'm scottish' like teenagers rebeling by all looking the same.

Whereas a true englishman doesn't feel the need to look like other englishmen. Thats not an absence of nation pride, it's a sign of national confidence.

Iy the scots got themselves proper trax raising powers and put customs on hadrians wall they wouls stop feeling the urge to wear plaid skirts.

There, is that contentious enough for you guthre old chap, or shall I try harder?


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Postby guthrie » Mon Oct 03, 2005 9:55 pm

I'm not looking for conetntious, I'm looking for sensible. Anyway, if the gvt hadnt lied to us about North sea oil it seems we probably could have been independent decades ago, and then the money wouldnt have gone to pay for 3.5 million unemployed.

I would suggest instead that what it shows is national unity and an appreciation of how fine men (without pot bellies) look in kilts. You disagree? Ask your womenfolk.



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Postby Dave B » Mon Oct 03, 2005 10:02 pm

guthrie wrote:I'm not looking for conetntious, I'm looking for sensible. .


That's a shame.

anyway I wouldn't question wheter they can look good. there are at least three re-enactors I can think of you wear utili-kilts, and if the orange camo was available in other than the v.expensive range I might have one.

I was questioning the need to wear a tartan one because of your ancestry rather than because of personal taste.


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Postby Binky » Mon Oct 03, 2005 10:02 pm

PHWOAR!!!! Men in kilts!!!!



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Postby ada-anne » Mon Oct 03, 2005 11:12 pm

You could always do what us Welsh did, choose an historical era and wear clothes from then


That's what almost everyone else has done. Most "folk" costumes around Europe, at least, are some form of historical dress with the variations particular to that area, before fashions started to travel and become less distinct. Think Bavarian, Norwegian, Breton....

English is difficult just because nothing was adopted early enough - now it's a question of looking for something to attach to, because there's nothing that just grew as "typical". I think you'd have to go for industrial revolution - dark trousers, white shirt, dark waistcoat, bowler or flat cap. Ladies, dark skirt, print blouse, and the ubiquitous shawl. I don't believe that was too much different between town and country.

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Postby guthrie » Tue Oct 04, 2005 10:41 am

Ahhh but Dave, the point about the tartan is the romance and historical attachement. THen nowadays it is as much a badge of allegiance, even if you have no family connections. Mind you, when even the FBI has a tartan, I would suggest things are out of hand. But then thats the sign that something is getting along ok, that it keeps evolving.



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Postby Caius » Tue Oct 04, 2005 6:17 pm

Left intentionally blank.


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Postby nutmeg_bec » Tue Oct 04, 2005 8:35 pm

dark trousers, white shirt, dark waistcoat, bowler or flat cap. Ladies, dark skirt, print blouse, and the ubiquitous shawl.


It's not terribly exciting, though - not a critisism, just that it might not catch the imagination of the mops. Actually, scrub that, they might go for that rather than some Morris Men inspired get-up?

Ahhhh, I've got visions of frilly polyester blouses and badly crocheted shawls now (anathema to this Victorian re-enactor)!!

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Postby ada-anne » Tue Oct 04, 2005 9:52 pm

Ahhhh, I've got visions of frilly polyester blouses and badly crocheted shawls now


Yikes, that hadn't occurred to me! I was thinking mill girls, or fish-wives - those blouses that cross over and pin, with no buttons, and woven shawls. Also inspired by the musical theatre group I used to be in, that always did dark, miserable shows. If you weren't wearing a shawl over your head, it wasn't right. Not that I'm suggesting English national costume should be grim, but frilly was not my vision.



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Postby frances » Tue Oct 04, 2005 10:05 pm

How about the Victorian smock. Worn with a pair of clogs and a canal bonnet for the women?



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Postby m300572 » Thu Oct 06, 2005 1:31 pm

Iy the scots got themselves proper trax raising powers and put customs on hadrians wall


You'll upset a lot of Northumbrian's with the suggestion that Hadrian's Wall in some way marks a national boundary that wasn't fixed, in places, until the 17th century. When built, the wall cut across Brigantian territory - in modern terms probably a bit like creating a border across England running acros Cheshire and Yorkshire, leaving the northern half of the country out on a limb.



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Postby gregory23b » Thu Oct 06, 2005 8:57 pm

"leaving the northern half of the country out on a limb."

the problem with that would be?


:twisted:


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Postby Alan_F » Sat Oct 08, 2005 9:19 pm

Dave B wrote:
guthrie wrote:I like asking hard questions. Asking the right questions is really hard. Does anyone disagree with my diagnosis of the popularity of the kilt?


Yep, I do. I think it just shows a lack of national confidence, having to wear something that says 'look i'm scottish' like teenagers rebeling by all looking the same.

Whereas a true englishman doesn't feel the need to look like other englishmen. Thats not an absence of nation pride, it's a sign of national confidence.

Iy the scots got themselves proper trax raising powers and put customs on hadrians wall they wouls stop feeling the urge to wear plaid skirts.

There, is that contentious enough for you guthre old chap, or shall I try harder?


As opposed to what? At least when scots sports fans go abroad they don't have some sort confidence problem that leads them to attacking people from other countries purely because they're from another country.

that contentious enough Dave?


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Postby gregory23b » Sat Oct 08, 2005 9:25 pm

Alan F - I see where you are coming from, however the tartan is worn at home and abroad by 'real' Scots, whether true or not it is a symbol of Scottish dress, the red cross on a white tee shirt four sizes too small over a large beer gut is not perceived as anything but a badge worn by a relatively small number of people. And Footy fans north and West of the borders are in no position to live in glass houses either.

Yes they do bring ill repute but are not in national dress is all I am getting at.


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Its obvious aint it...

Postby Andy T » Sat Oct 08, 2005 10:15 pm

The English national costume is worn by and appropriated by French and Italian gents pretending to be English gents-its the three piece suit -invented in the seventeeth century and updated since....


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Postby m300572 » Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:09 pm

"leaving the northern half of the country out on a limb."

the problem with that would be?



We'd end up stuck with a load of bloody Geordie types!!



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Postby Borsch Monster » Tue Oct 11, 2005 1:37 pm

guthrie wrote:I'm not looking for conetntious, I'm looking for sensible. Anyway, if the gvt hadnt lied to us about North sea oil it seems we probably could have been independent decades ago, and then the money wouldnt have gone to pay for 3.5 million unemployed.


Why do the Scots think that everything that comes out of the North Sea is theirs? Much of it (especially the gas) is off the coast of England & virtually all of it is in international waters.Image



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Postby guthrie » Tue Oct 11, 2005 7:16 pm

We dont. But the simple point is that much of it is accessible from Scotland far more than Norway, and we seem to have a claim to it, even if it is in international waters. Then a study surfaced suggesting that Scotland would have had a nice suprplus from the oil that it could claim, so, you have no point to make.

(Of course some irrational people might like to say that all the north sea oil is Scottish, but hey, ignore them. As for gas, see where thats egtting us. A dependency on imported gas and a bankrupt nuclear industry requiring massive subsidy in part because cheap easily exploited gas was encouraged so much)



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Postby Drachelis » Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:43 pm

Ducking.......................

How about a kirtle and doublet and hose? or if one wants to go later English Civil War equivalent.


Still ducking.......

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Postby nutmeg_bec » Thu Oct 13, 2005 9:40 pm

later than what? I've heard those terms used for 17thC too. Actually, considering the size of the 17thC re-enactment population, and it's not a bad look for a national costume...



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Postby gregory23b » Fri Oct 14, 2005 11:47 am

ECWS kit for national costume, no thanks, I would rather see early to mid 18th century a bit more elegant methinks.

Compulsory breeches, waistcoat, coat and hats and wigs weeeee.


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