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Could anyone tell me about this please?

Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 2:40 pm
by Marcus Woodhouse ... dZViewItem It's listed on eBay as being a "posh 15th century doublet". Can anyone tell me if it is and if it might be worth me looking into? Much obliged to you all. Yours in Faith, Marcus.

Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 3:22 pm
by guthrie
WEll, I'd say it definitely loks like a "Posh dublet for larp" as the title goes. I dont think so much of it for 15th century, although I could be wrong, not being totally up to speed on the complexities of posh kit.

Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 3:27 pm
by mally ley
Definately not pre-1500.

Shape-wise I would say is more late C16th - I'm not going to comment on the rest ...

Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 3:36 pm
by Marcus Woodhouse
Thats what I thought thanks for confirmation.

Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 3:44 pm
by Tuppence

the style is vaguely 16th / 17th century

I say vaguely cos it's the right basic shape (tabs shoulder wings etc, etc.)

but in terms of the fabric, decoration, and fastenings it bears incredibly little resemblence to any original garment I've ever seen of any period (and I've seen a fair few).

fine for larpers who aren't bothered about accuracy, but for re-enactors, it's rubbish (speaking as somebody who belongs to groups who'd probably burn me if I turned up with something ike that let alone the doublet :wink: )

Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 5:48 pm
by seamsmistress
Dear god, but that's ghastly! And the seller is in the same town as me! unknown to me, I hasten to add. Ditto tuppences's comments.
They retail for well over £75.00? Really? Okay, well, a quick check reveals pattern was purchased by the seller via ebay on 20th October 06 for £3.50 & is McCall's 4695 Men's Renaissance Doublet - so, for LRP or Renfairs, maybe, but not the discerning re-enactor.

Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 6:21 pm
by Pretaboire
Oh dear lord thats nasty.

Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 6:29 pm
by Jenn
But you need a fortnight to finish to the right authentic standard...mind boggling

Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 7:02 pm
by gregory23b
My eyes!!

Never ever trust what any ebayer* is describing unless you are already forarmed with the knowledge, esp in clothing.

I do regular searches for 'medieval' just to see what turns up.

* or indeed anyone to be truthful.

Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 8:26 pm
by Simon_Diment
They could do with a spell checker too, just as nasty as the item itself.

S :twisted:

Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 9:09 am
by Marcus Woodhouse
It's okay my interest in it has been dropped. It didn't look right to me either, but thinking I know something and actually being sure I know something are different, hence my desire to check with you all.

Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 2:23 pm
by Colin Middleton
15th C my A***! :evil:

Based on what Sarah Thursfield told us the other weekend, if you want a posh 15th C doublet, you need it making for you to fit YOU exactly. If you're poor, you might get away with something that fits close-enough, but they are supposed to fit really well to work properly.


Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 3:10 pm
by Tuppence
yeah, but largely any fifteenth century clothing has to fit right to work right - posh or otherwise.

and don't forget, this did say it was made to measure - (although actualy, given the person making it apparently needs patterns, rather than cutting their own, I'd take that to be a not good sign.

but it's just looking at it that makes it want to wash the inside of your eyes!

for fifteenth century posh you should have a very tightly fitted, though relatively plain of cut and fabric doublet, and a gown or short gown over the top, made in a costly fabric (whether a silk or a top level wool), and most likely trimmed with a fur of some sort.

from the pics I've looked at, fabrics for tight fitting doublets are normally plain, for the gowns they're plain or patterned - but the patterns are actually quite distinctive - you can't get away with just anything - and if patterned it really does need to be silk.

I'm working on one of those shortly - (shorter gown in proper silk) if I remember I'll post a pic when it's done.

Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 3:22 pm
by guthrie
Tuppence- please post a pic when your done. Can you reccmoend any sources of pictures/ info on actual fabrics used for these posh gowns?

Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 1:27 pm
by Colin Middleton
The MoL book on Textiles has lots of good pictures in it, but it really can't beat handeling some of the textiles or at least their modern equivalent. Our training course was a real eye-opener. Practically everything we wear is made of the wrong type of cloth!

I look forward to the pictures Tuppence.


Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:36 pm
by Tuppence
If you mena historical sources, afaIk, nobody's ever put together anything on patterns of cloth all in one place from all sources (i.e. finds, plus extant garments, plus paintings, etc, etc).

So it's really just a case of looking at the paintings, and the very few existing garments in brocades, brocatelles, samites, damasks (there are a couple of bits out there - most notably the pourpoint of charles de blois), and in paintings and manuscript illustrations. recommend the british library, british museum, and bodleian for those.

or if in london, head off to the textiles room at the v&a and take some photos (I spent about 6 hours there doing that earlier in the year, and it was wonderful!)

Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 11:24 pm
by MedicKitten
surely, Tuppence, you really mean "head off to the textiles room at the v&a and press your nose against the glass and sigh longingly"...or is that just me? :oops:

Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 12:01 am
by guthrie
They let you take photos? Surely they are restricting flash use therefore you used a large camera with long shutter time on a tripod?

Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 6:23 pm
by Tuppence

as long as it's for private study, you can take as many pictures as you like, and you are free to use flash.

I'm not sure that flash photography would work, as the frames all have glass holding the textile fragments in - probably you'd just get the reflection of the flash. but you can use it if you like.

flash is restricted in the costume gallery, (and any others with dim lighting), and if the label for an item says it's on loan from a private collection you can't take any pictures, but they are the only restrictions. I checked before taking hundreds :D

and I used my nice digital camera on increased exposure (no flash), and a combination of normal shots and really close up ones using the digital macro setting.

Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 7:03 pm
by seamsmistress
Sadly, the aforementioned Doublet didn't sell. What a bargain we all missed :wink: