Tudor gown lacing?

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lidimy
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Post by lidimy »

of course it is a 1540s dress! a little out of date, but then my father lost one of his patrons so couldnt afford a new gown for me :P

and a french hood time line sounds great and very useful! weren't the earliest recognisable forms from italy?

lidi :D

p.s - thanks for bossing me about! it makes me feel so much more confident!! :D
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Post by lidimy »

new subheading:

-----bound edges-----


except that its not a very good subheading as im not even sure if it is the right term for what i mean!

well anyway, after a comment that bess said about the Tudors prefering rich deep colours, i have been attempting to find some colours with which to embellish my dress. after ripping apart some old bed linen, i kept some crimson satin ribbon with which the top and bottom of the duvet covers were put together with. in that state, it had covered the seam between the 2 pieces of fabric, with a fold in the middle. i think this is called 'binding edges' but if not i hope you know what i mean! what i was wondering was whether this would be suitable for binding the top edges, the neckline, of my bodice. is this period? are there any examples of this?

thankoo as ever :)

lidi :)
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Post by myladyswardrobe »

Hi Lidimy,

Just been mooching around on Living History and felt my ears burning so I had a look here and lo and behold, my name has been mentioned a number of times!

Hoods, Hats and Coifs!
1530s:- you can have a simple French hood
http://tudorhistory.org/boleyn/anneboleyn2.jpg
or the English transitional version
http://www.saintmarys.edu/~alumnae/hust ... olbein.jpg
which is a cross between the old Gable Hood
http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/html/h ... ymour.html and the French hood.

1540s:- the French Hood is the most popular and is changing shape.
http://www.kimiko1.com/research-16th/Fr ... hHead.html - Front view
http://www.kimiko1.com/research-16th/Fr ... rHead.html - Side View
And this is my own version: http://pics.livejournal.com/edmndclotwo ... c/000054fw

1550s:- Most of the styles of the 1540s are being seen but there is one slight variation. This is the "flatter" french hood:-
http://www.kimiko1.com/research-16th/Fr ... yHead.html
and
http://www.kimiko1.com/research-16th/Fr ... 4Head.html

The back bit is a tube (please DON'T wear your hair loose in it!!!) which can be left open at the bottom, though it should be lined or it can be sewn up at the bottom. The Tudor Tailor has a perfectly suitable instructions for making French Hoods.
If you want a REALLY simple version of the FH then have a look at this link: http://modehistorique.com/elizabethan/coif.html
I've seen this one up close as Sarah is a friend of mine and brought her costume with her when she visited me in the summer of 2005. And here's another version of her French hoods: http://modehistorique.com/benlowes/12th ... detail.jpg

Now, you did say you wanted your dress to be more 1530s (like Jane Seymour) - well no problem having a later French hood as long as you are in that decade and not the 1530s. After all, as you say, your back story can be that your father can't afford a new gown but can afford a new hood.

I would say that velvet seems to be usually used for the veil but silk would be good too though do interline it to give it a bit of body. This is useful if you want the tube/veil to be able to turn up as a bongrace. Whatever you do, PLEASE don't use any colour other than black! For some reason, they are always black!

Alternative options to the french hood are the Jane Small/Mrs Pemberton style hat which I had recreated for last year: http://pics.livejournal.com/myladysward ... c/0001a664 (I did not make the hat part).

Or you can go with the gable hood. Or you can do the Katherine Parr option of a coif and Henrician style hat: http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/html/m ... _parr.html
I recreated this one when we did 1553:- http://pics.livejournal.com/edmndclotwo ... c/0000k8cs
(dreadful photo of me though! Many apologies!).

So, you can take your pick really!

As per the binding. No reason why you can't use a narrow binding around the neckline of your bodice and if you have enough, take it down the front edge of the open skirt. Ninya bound the edges of this reproduction of the Princess Elizabeth gown: http://www.ninyamikhaila.com/eliztower.html

Hope that helps with all your decision making.

Good luck with it all.

Bess.
Gentry/Tailor/Needlelace Maker - Kentwell.
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Post by MedicKitten »

Bess, that hat of yours (last year's middle class) was fantastic...who made it? I think that pink kirtle of yours is also absolutely delightful. I'm only hoping that my kirtle for this year can live up to it.
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Post by lidimy »

Bess you're a ledgend :D

Thankyou!! I was waiting for 20 mins for you last night to reply to this topic but you spent so long on the friends and gossip I decided to go to bed :lol:

Thanks for all the links, I don't suppose you know any patterns and methods for the construction of a transitional hood do you? I've always liked them and my original plan was to make one until I realised that I didn't have a clue about how to make it.

And I agree, the pink kirtle does look very comfy :D

Lidi (:
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Hat maker...

Post by myladyswardrobe »

Dorate,

The hat is a lovely one. The lady who made it has this website:- http://www.catherinedelaneyhats.co.uk/
Do have a look at the Historical gallery. She has made hats for the Globe Theatre.

I am very pleased with that "blush" wool gown. It is a GORGEOUS fabric - imported from your neck of the woods!!! Actually, its the same type of fabric (in terms of weight and weave etc) as my red wool for my red 1569 gown. Its SO comfy! I have a red linen (self lined) underkirtle beneath it which has a front laced bodice and a ankle length skirt which has a padding interlining. This is stiffened with just very heavy weight buckram and I think just two bones. I have NO boning whatsoever in the rose kirtle - just a double layer of lightweight shirt collar canvas and a pocket for a wooden busk but I can wear the kirtle without the busk if I wish!

I have the same wool in a sage-y green too! HOPING to make a waistcoat and/or middle class English gown from that to wear with the underkirtle.

I'm absolutely sure your kirtle will come at as good or better!! Your blue one was lovely.

Will you be able to get over for one of the Open Days?

Best wishes

Bess.
Gentry/Tailor/Needlelace Maker - Kentwell.
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Post by myladyswardrobe »

Bess you're a legend


Coo!! I've never been called that before!! :D

Thankyou!! I was waiting for 20 mins for you last night to reply to this topic but you spent so long on the friends and gossip I decided to go to bed


I'm sorry!! I was hunting around for appropriate piccie links. I'm assuming you realised I was on livinghistory.

Thanks for all the links, I don't suppose you know any patterns and methods for the construction of a transitional hood do you? I've always liked them and my original plan was to make one until I realised that I didn't have a clue about how to make it.


You're welcome.
I didn't think I did know of somewhere that had the transitional pattern, but have a look at this web page: http://web.comhem.se/~u41200125/Moresdaughter.html
Eva (a Swedish costumer - very nice lady too!), has made one of the "More" girl's dresses. She has also made the transitional hood. She says she used the Henrician Coif pattern from the Tudor Tailor for this hood part and added the veil at the back. Would you like to have a shot at adapting that coif? Or would you like me to have a look at it and create a graphic for you?

And I agree, the pink kirtle does look very comfy


It is very comfy!! I've described it and the underlayer beneath it in my reply to Dorate. I am SO pleased with that gown. In fact, I like that side lacing gown so much that I am recreating it for my gentry gown this year in a silvery blue silk satin!!

I DO hope you will be visiting Kentwell this summer!!!

Hugs

Bess.
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Post by lidimy »

I shall HAVE to visit Kentwell in summer!

(thank you for correcting my spelling of legend by the way, it's very gracious of you - I thought it didn't look right!)

If you would create a graphic, I would be very ':D', but I know that, being such a clever lady and all, you are also very busy; so I may try adapting the pattern myself. The more oppurtunities I get at doing so, especially with little things like coifs, the more confident I will get as well, so I am happy to have a fiddle myself :D

Lidi :D
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Post by MedicKitten »

Bess, sorry, no open days for me, neither one is during my holiday in the spring, BUT i WILL be in Denmark from March 2 to march 11. :-p
Close, but no UK. Too bad you wont be in Copenhagen!
I sent a letter to PP begging him to take me anyway...hope it works!
Ita erat quando hic adveni.

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Post by myladyswardrobe »

Hi Lidimy,

My main problem with sorting out the graphic is the fact that my laptop is refusing to have anything to do with graphic programs - it keeps crashing on me!! Very annoying!

Use the Henrician Coif pattern for the hood bit and for the back "veil" either the standard French Hood veil or the Bongrace one - all of which are in Tudor Tailor. Play around with the pattern with a scrappy bits of fabric before you start working on the good fabric so you can get the right pattern.

And make sure you DO visit Kentwell.

Take care and Happy Sewing.

Bess.
Gentry/Tailor/Needlelace Maker - Kentwell.
www.myladyswardrobe.com

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Post by myladyswardrobe »

Hi Dorate,

Shame you can't get over for the OD but if you happen to be in Denmark at the time, then that could be a very good reason for PP. Have you heard back from him yet?

Would you be able to do the second OD? Could be a little bit of a problem as its so close to the main event.

Keeping fingers crossed you will be ok to come to KW.

Best wishes

Bess.
Gentry/Tailor/Needlelace Maker - Kentwell.
www.myladyswardrobe.com

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Post by lidimy »

OK Bess, I shall do that :D Does it need to be made from white, or black?

Quick question for you or anyone - when in Tudor times did peasant bodices become seperated from the skirt?

Thanks :)

Lidi :D
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Post by MedicKitten »

Lidimy, according to Ninya, bodices and skirts in kirtles may not actually have separated at all! If you DO want separates, you'll want to lace or hook them together, because otherwise you get ::gasp:: GAPPAGE!!!! NOOOOO!!!
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Post by lidimy »

That would be awful. Sounds like the Tudor equivalent, in fact, to bending over and showing your thong.

Eeugh.

Would it not be period to seperate them, then? Kinda blows my plans out od the water if so :?

Lidi :D
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Post by Annie the Pedlar »

THE GAP
I have a different theory. I think people are making their skirts fit their natural measurements. When they do their bodice up it takes inches off their waist ....so the waistband is now too big and the skirt slips down. If you make the waist of the skirt tight enough there is no gap.
(BTW I'm not talking about the gentry - they put so much material in their skirts you need a fork lift truck to hold them up :twisted: )

And I've got another theory. All those stomachers, plackets etc you see behind a kirtle, could be an underkirtle and they've just slung another kirtle or a skirt over the top. You wouldn't see a gap then, would you......?

And the answer to you question is - the first time I can see different coloured bodices and skirts in England is in the Fete/Feast/Wedding at Bermondsey 1569 by Hoefnegel.

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Post by Annis »

Mine are seperates and they had never gaped :D only when vigorously dancing at the Ceilidhs during my first year
(I dont think it happened last year, probably because my bodice was made smaller so it held the skirt up)
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Post by lidimy »

Thanks Annie, if it's ok for them to be in 2 different colours then that will do me fine :D I just need to think of another colour to go with the one I already have now...

Annis I need to go to Colchester don't I :evil: :lol:



nd I've got another theory. All those stomachers, plackets etc you see behind a kirtle, could be an underkirtle and they've just slung another kirtle or a skirt over the top. You wouldn't see a gap then, would you......?


funny, I've always thought that too :)

Lidi :D
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Post by Annis »

The Remnant Shop in Colchester is a haven for re-enactors.

If I won the lottery, I would buy all their wool (well the suitable colours).
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Post by lidimy »

AAAAH!

eyelets!!


grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr I hate them :(
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Post by Sophia »

They are not so bad - how many have you got to do?

Remember that if you do them properly you will not have to do them again.

Sophia :D

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Post by lidimy »

ummm...

only 14 :)

I always have 3 on the go at one point - with the various thickness of knitting needle increasing in each :D

Can't get any thicker than 4 though - it's just like the poor fabric just can't take any more than that. :(

Lidi :D
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Post by Sophia »

The most important thing is to ensure that your lace with an aiglet on the end will fit through your eyelet. If you are having trouble making them large enough and you are near the edge of the garment or on a corner you have probably not graded the seam allowance enough. I always grade back the interlining very heavily and any fabric that is turned in on the corners (will give you a neater corner as well).

As for size I mine are base on the maximum size of my awl (a lovely brass one from Kay Rowse which has a radius of about 5mm for heavier work and a fine turned bone one from Bikkel en Been which does go up to 5mm but is better for finer fabrics). I also tend to match the weight of the thread I use to make my lucet/fingerbraid to the type of use of the points/lacing. Interesting to note here that a very firm lucet/five loop fingerbraid in silk is very durable.

If you want ready made points, need aiglets or would like aiglets riveted onto points you have made then I suggest that you contact Annie the Pedlar.

Sophia :D

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Post by lidimy »

Sophia, your post would make much more sense to me if I knew what an awl was, what a lucet/fingerbraid is, and what points are :D

Probably down to the seam allowance then :S my bad! This is the first time I have ever made eyelets, so that would account for my problems :)


Thanks

Lidi :D
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Post by Theotherone »

Hi Lidi,

An awl is a tool for making holes in things. If your Parents are at all handy arround the house they may have a baisic one in the tool box.

Luceting(?) is a way of making cord

http://www.thelucet.co.uk/

(BTW I'm sure Annie does lucets too)
Because there would have to be three of them.

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Post by Sophia »

Sorry about that Lidi darling.

As Theotherone said:

- an awl is a tool for making holes, specifically a tailors awl is used for opening up an eyelet after you have stab stitched round it and before you either oversew or buttonhole stitch the edges (I prefer buttonhole stitch as I find it looks nicer and to my mind wears better but opinions differ). You can use a carpenter's awl but I prefer my tailor's ones as they are smaller, easier to use and a better thickness, i.e. thicker.

- lucet is a form of braiding done on a two pronged affair which you can buy easily at places like the Oyster Fayre at Colchester or Annie can provide as ever. In an emergency you could use french knitting though this will tend to come up too springy and too thick unless you use very fine thread and keep your tension very tight.

- five loop finger braiding is another method of producing a cord, the lovely Gina Barret and her friend Elizabeth Benns have produced an excellent book with modern instructions for this and other forms of fingerbraiding (for braids, cords, etc. made by one, two and three people) entitled Tak V Bowes Departed (details here).

- Points is the generic term for the lacings with aiglets on which are used to do up clothing. As far as I can work out, women's points are variable in length (depending on what you are doing up), most men's points are about 10-12" long, though they can be longer. Points can be made in various forms of cord, leather or even fine braid. Annie will make what you want and can advise you on what would be correct for your garment.

Sophia :D

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Post by lidimy »

Thanks for the explanation :D

Really should have looked more into hole making before I started this, I think that would have been beneficial.... probably because I have never even heard of stab stitching before....

I hope I haven't ruined it all :(

Lidi :)
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Post by Theotherone »

I just struggled throuch my first 22 eyelets on a practice run. I was using a canvas needle to start the holes off followed by a surgical stich cutting sissors to widen (push, twist, push, twist) It never even occured to me to use my awl :oops:
Because there would have to be three of them.

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Post by Sophia »

Practice runs are a good idea if you haven't done eyelets before as getting them right is a little tricky. That being said I'm not sure that I have ever practiced except in the sense that I seem to have done an awful lot of them. Peter's last doublet totaled 58 eyelets, 20 down each side on the front and 18 round the waist and my late kirtles average about 19, earlier ones have 20 plus. I am currently finishing a pourpoint/petticoat (light sleeveless doublet type garment) for Peter and like all blokes fitted upper halves it needs 18 eyelets round the waist (just so their hose don't end up round their ankles) :roll:

Good instructions in Lacings and eyelets section of Medieval Tailors Assistant (pp 53-55) or basic ones in Tudor Tailor (p. 51).

Sophia :D

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Post by MedicKitten »

:oops: I...um...never DID get the eyelets sewn over on last year's bodice for kentwell!
It just seemed like everything else wound up being more important :-p

On the other hand...I also had the interlining WAY too close to the edge, so the dratted things just kept closing on me! This year's will be MUCH better. I promise. AND they'll be done when I get there. Really! I wont be stitching in the airport this time! :twisted:
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Post by Sophia »

As long as you didn't cheat and use metal eyelets - I know some people do and then oversew them but this is not accurate and is also more fragile as you have to punch holes for them which is in effect cutting the cloth. You can strengthen with metal rings by incorporating them into your oversewing if you are really worried about stability.

I reckon about two leisurely hours to do eyelets on a late C15th flat fronted kirtle which isn't much different from an early Tudor kirtle or slightly later common woman's kirtle. These are stiffened with heavy interlining not boned - I know a lot of people bone, but I am not convinced it was common among the lower classes until much, much later.

Sophia :D
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