Tudor gown lacing?

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Shadowcat
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Post by Shadowcat »

Tamsin Lewis wrote:Am worryingly laid back - something must be wrong!
Tam
x


I'll second that - she was very relaxed when I saw her earlier today - ringing my bell instead of the downstairs one though...................

S.

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Post by MedicKitten »

Bother. I'll have to start emailing Bella and giving Very Good Excuses. My best one so far is "I'm going to be in Denmark over my spring holidays for school, cannot be helped!"

And i DID ask my professor if we could have a layover in England for me to pop in to the open day!!! i DID!...no time.

::sighs:: time to start beggin i spose!
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Post by lidimy »

'lo again -

how many lacing holes do i need? i vaguely recall reading *somewhere* that 11 on each side is correct, or at least advisable, but i would like some suggestions pwease :)

also, do they need to be alternately spaced, or opposite eachother?

lidi :)
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Shadowcat
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Post by Shadowcat »

I've never read any rules about how many lacing holes to put in - it depends so much on the length that needs lacing - the longer it is the more holes. And it differs depending on how close you want them.

Read this for information on placing.

http://www.festiveattyre.com/research/l ... acing.html

S.

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Post by lidimy »

Thank you :) spiral lacing it is, then! I assume that the more holes you put in, the less bulgy it is likely to be. The length of my bodice front is 25cm. Although for some reason, one side is half a cm longer than the other... very peculiar!

lidi :)
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Post by Sophia »

Lidi,

They should ideally be no more than 1" apart and offset for spiral lacing. Don't worry about the difference in length - nobody is exactly symetrical. Also as long as you have saved your pattern you can improve on it next time round.

Also I strongly recommend taking the time and effort to make your lacing holes by hand - it may seem laborious, but they are much more durable than if you punch holes and use metal and then oversew to hide them. I believe this is also much more authentic at this period - any metal rings would most probably have simply been oversewn on in the process of making the lacing hole to my mind.

Sophia :D

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Post by lidimy »

punch holes? use metal? sounds frightfully strenuous! of course im doing it by hand :D takes ages though - i remember doing the ones for my kirtle. meh. very satisfying though :D thanks for your help!

lidi :D
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Post by Sophia »

Satisfying is definitely the word - my late C15th petticoats which are side laced generally have a total of 19 holes. Peter's posh front pointed kermes (scarlet) coloured doublet had a total of 40 holes down the front (10 pairs each side) and then a further 18 (9 pairs) round the waist for pointing onto his hose. I pride myself on the neatness of my lacing holes. :lol:

All I have to do now is find an opportunity to "pin" him down to fit the new posh hose to go with (made to measure to account for his funny stance due to his duff back and with stirrups so they don't ride up in his boots. He tends to wriggle so he will probably quite literally end up being pinned. :twisted:

Have fun.

Sophia :D

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Post by lidimy »

a bit of a topic jump (i didnt want to make a new thread)

hats and hoods.

i am VERY confused, and me and annis discussed it earlier but we just ended up confusing eachother.
firstly, french hoods....
i know that the general idea with them is that you have a tube thing to hold your hair, made from black material, probably satin. but is it possible to have a 1530s/40s/ possibly 50s french hood with a bongrace type thing instead of this veil? or what about the image of the girl with a french hood and a caul type net attached to the back? and a profile which i remember seeing (i think it was on a coin) which had an image of a lady with a congrace type french hood?

secondly, coifs with (as annis calls them) cowpat hats/flat caps. are they suitable for gentry? as in everyday wear for gentry? i looked through some old kentwell piccies, and i did see gentry wearing coifs with caps in this way. would it be suitable?

sorry for my distinct lack of terminology, it doesnt make it any easier....

lids
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Post by Annis »

Out of the 1549 and 1553 pics from the link I sent you, (http://www.hockwold.info/kentwell/) there weren't any in 1549 and only 1 in 1553. But 1553 is NOT Henrican! So fashion could have changed after Henry passed on.
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Post by lidimy »

not that much - although the bodices did get a lot longer at the front and the shape of the french hoods changed somewhat. and the sleeves changed ever so slightly, but all these things never really deviated from the french gown theme.

so back to square one, really. the field of the cloth of gold shows them (with white cowpats) and doesnt jane small wear one as well? and that was from 1540. i think she was english, wasnt she? i cant remember
:? it sounds it.

lidi :D
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Post by lidimy »

just had another hard look at the TT.
yes, jane small was english. so what she wears on her head must be exemplary?

also, if you look closely at the piccies at the top of pg 29 in the TT, the little girls appear to have hoods on, over a coif/plus bongrace, although the date is nebulous.

the image of the monument woman who is on there also seems to have some kind of bag at the back of her head, which is then covered by the pleated veil. the date for this is 1559, but this same construction would give the same effect as given in images of anne boleyn and her contemporaries.

any help would be appreciated, as i dont really know where i am going with this :?

lidi :)
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Post by Shadowcat »

Perhaps you should look at some images of French Hoods.

http://www.kimiko1.com/research-16th/FrenchHood/

S.

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Post by lidimy »

ooh, thankyou very much :D:D:D

still divided though - its difficult to see from front views, though some of the pictures did definitely show a form of the hood with a coif type thing at the back. one of them has a bongrace too. but other ones look as if it is a tube still. i am soo oconfused.

lidi :D
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Post by lidimy »

and another.... cant make out if it is a tube, or a coif and veil....
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Post by lidimy »

here's the coin i remember seeing. it really does look like a coif and veil from this angle;
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Post by Shadowcat »

I would suggest you ignore the first one, as I believe they are Italian.

Second one may be slight fantasy, as she is a Biblical character, and they didn't always wear everyday dress.

Third one is the Queen of England. Need to be careful as things may have been fudged to make it easier for the carver of the original wax image. Think that's how they were made?)

All good and useful images though.

S.

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Post by Annie the Pedlar »

Throw away the confusion. There are lots of different versions.
There are some very simple early ones evolving from a folded veil with a border, then they get more elaborate but differ with time and space (date and country,) and status and there are not gentry folk trying to immitate the gentry fashion but having to do it on the cheap.
To be aufentik I would pick a picture and stick to that style of headdress and gown. Don't try to mix and match. You can go horribly wrong.

Coifs and caps - remember Kentwell picks a specific year to portray and it is changed every year. If by some evil happenstance you have managed to procure some Kentell costume notes (Annis!!!!!! - Up a step on the stairway to Heaven for your generosity, back down to the naughty step for making free whith what is not yours to give away. They belong to Rosemary and Kentwell - intellectual propery rights, long hours of research, it's what makes Kentwell special etc. and I've been told off for being kind hearted like you) you must check the dates. What is suitable in one year hasn't been invented in another.

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Post by lidimy »

not very good at this research thing am I :(

what would you suggest? i really dont know what to do! :(
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Post by Annis »

:oops:
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Post by Annie the Pedlar »

Shadow cat had a really lovely idea. I pinched it and its really helpful.
You start collecting pictures eg postcards of portraits in museums you visit, cut up the catalogue, print out stuff from the Elizabethan Costuming Page - that Hungarian Museums section is great. Once you get started you see costumes everywhere - on Chistmas cards and calendars etc.

Then pop them in a file in the order of the date when they were painted.
Those files with plastic pagey pockets are nice or I just throw the lot in a box file and rummage through when I'm looking for something specific.
So suppose you want a look from around 1550. You flick through the file for where you put all the pictures between 1540 and 1550. (If you fancy something from 1551 you could argue the dress had to be made before it could be worn and painted :twisted:
And because you've sorted by date you start to get a feel for what was in and what was out. And you start to spot things no body's told you about like "Hey, the Spanish were wearing pointy waists ages before we were" or "Cor Blimey that Belgian peasant is 40 years behind the times !"

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Post by Annis »

Annie the Pedlar wrote:Shadow cat had a really lovely idea. I pinched it and its really helpful.
You start collecting pictures eg postcards of portraits in museums you visit, cut up the catalogue, print out stuff from the Elizabethan Costuming Page - that Hungarian Museums section is great. Once you get started you see costumes everywhere - on Chistmas cards and calendars etc.

Then pop them in a file in the order of the date when they were painted.


Ooooh, i like it! I might nick that idea too sometime.
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Post by lidimy »

lol annie :P i only have 2 post cards of tudor people, and a few napoleonic! but i have several folders on my computer - 'tudors only' for anything tudor and 'old people' which covers medieval, baroque, classical, romantic.... you get the idea. its a start i guess.

still dont know what to do though - i could just do what tamsin lewis said 'as long as you've got a coif on, you're decent' - but i really want something thats matched with a contemporary portrait. i feel a little frustrated.

lidi :(
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Post by Shadowcat »

Annie the Pedlar wrote:Shadow cat had a really lovely idea. I pinched it and its really helpful.
You start collecting pictures eg postcards of portraits in museums you visit, cut up the catalogue, print out stuff from the Elizabethan Costuming Page - that Hungarian Museums section is great. Once you get started you see costumes everywhere - on Chistmas cards and calendars etc.

Then pop them in a file in the order of the date when they were painted.
"


Trouble is, it gets out of hand - I now have 15 bulging post card books, (each takes about 40 pages of 8 postcards) and about the same number of photographs, that I have taken. That does not include the ones I have on the computer!!

I got the idea from Jean Hunnisett.

S.

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Post by Annie the Pedlar »

still dont know what to do though


I was starting to loose the plot but I looked back to the begining of the thread and you said the gown was 1530 ish.
Have a look on the web for pictures by Holbein - the Thomas More family are typically English and favour the English Gable hoods but there are some strange hybrid ones and he has drawn post 1530 ladies wearing French hoods.
And Francois Clouet. He was working in France at this time and his portraits are (I think) exclusively of French hoods. Anne Boleyn was handmaid to the Queen of France and seems to have brought that fashion over to England.

Once you've settled on which hood you are going to make do you know Ninya has instructions on the Web and Bess of the Gentry sells a DIY booket (really cheap)?

Still confused?
If you want to be told what to do - do a tube and DON'T make it velvet.
Your satin ides is good......

Annie sheding blood, sweat and tears over garments she agreed to make out of silk chiffon. DON'T USE THAT EITHER! :cry:

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Post by Shadowcat »

Clouet and other French 16th century images - click on a picture but be prepared to drool for hours.

http://www.culture.gouv.fr/documentatio ... in_16e.htm

S.

Annie, you are mad - it says in my rules NO SILK CHIFFON - EVER!!

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Post by MedicKitten »

nne Boleyn was handmaid to the Queen of France and seems to have brought that fashion over to England.


Actually, the painting of Mary Tudor and her husband Charles, Duke of Suffolk was painted for their wedding back in...um...1520 or so, and shows Mary QUITE clearly wearing a French hood. Since she had been Queen of France, I think she might have brought the fashion over earlier...so you can certainly get away with it.

I may be wrong though. I just saw that painting day before yesterday and said "HEY!!! THAT'S A FRENCH HOOD BACK WHEN ANNE WAS STILL IN FRANCE!!!" :D
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Post by lidimy »

i have 3 of that picture on my computer - i really love it! its a shame that mary and anne never got on, i think. they have a lot in common :P

annie, thanks for the firm instruction! now i know who to blame if its wrong :lol: :lol:

also, what about jane small? i really do like what she is wearing on her head. not quite as edgy as a hood, but kind of soft and rounded, and after all, maybe they didnt wear the ornamental hoods all the time? a bit of a supposition, but i suppose it's natural to want to be all frocked up for a portrait.

shadowcat - thanks for the link! LOADS of images there - its a shame that they arent 'filled in' so to speak. they appear to go along with the tube idea though.

lidi :D
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Post by Annie the Pedlar »

Well spotted Medickitten, I was doing a quick flick, you are obviously an in depth reseacher 8)
A new theory - the French and Scots were a pretty close bunch. I bet the French hood pops up in Scotland before it does in England.
A competition - what's the earlist dates you can find evidence for French hoods in the following countries - France, Spain, Italy, the Netherlands England, Scotland,...
Then what do we do? Draw a graph? Compare and contrast? Work out a trail and theorise how it came to be?

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Post by Annie the Pedlar »

also, what about jane small?


Mrs Pemberton....yes, she's 1540. Does your dress look 1540? If so tell everybody you made everything to look 1540 ish and we won't snitch on you :wink:

Make the cowpat hat white or cream. There seems to have been quite a lot of those about.
(That's me bossing lidimy around to stop her dithering - I know Kentwellies stick any coloured hat on their heads but I think they nicked them off their boyfriends.......)
Its over a coif so we are back to Tamsin's advice with knobs (or hats) on.

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