Tudor gown lacing?

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myladyswardrobe
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Postby myladyswardrobe » Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:05 pm

Lidimy,

As Jenn and Shadowcat both said, have your placket/stomacher stitched into the Right hand side seam and hook it up on the left hand side seam. (assuming you are Right Handed!). You can then pin it through on the left hand side (probably will need help with that every time you need to dress in it!) so it looks more authentic.

Take the costuming a tiny bit at a time otherwise you will get totally overwhelmed!! Don't worry about the stomacher/placket bit at this stage. You need to concentrate on getting the bodice properly fitted first.

As regards where the bodice sits, i will happily take your word for it that it needs to sit properly on the waist before the skirts are attached, but surely the weight of the skirts will pull it down a bit anyway? or am i missing something about the method of attaching the skirt?


Yes, the skirts will pull the bodice a certain amount, but when a bodice fits very closely and is tight enough to support you (I assume you know I mean here!), then even the weight of the skirts shouldn't shift the bodice in any way. Also, there is a method of attaching the skirts which logically should not work but for some reason does! Don't worry about that for now though.

Regarding tightening the straps once the sleeves are on, this is a bit difficult to explain withut pictures. I will need to use my dummy to get a photo so you can see it but you will need to wait a bit for that - my sewing room is resembling a costume explosion at the moment and I can't find anything at the moment!! :wink: Again, dont worry about it at this stage.

Anyway, its 10pm and I need to go to bed as Im awak at 5.45 tomorrow morning (I hate commuting!!).

Take it all a small step at a time.

Take Care

Bess.


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Postby lidimy » Wed Oct 04, 2006 4:24 pm

well thankyou for that piece of advice :D i know im impatient, i want to have it all at once...

but to take my mind off things, i am going to an opera about the life of anne boleyn tomorrow evening, yay!! should be good!!

oh and also, what on earth has happened to the new board design? i cant say i like it that much :?


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Postby myladyswardrobe » Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:43 pm

well thankyou for that piece of advice i know im impatient, i want to have it all at once...


I know!! I was like that to start with but have learnt the hard way to take it a bit at a time! When you get to the point where you have made a completed bodice and then find a major mistake which means having to take it apart TWO WEEKS before Kentwell, you learn VERY QUICKLY from that mistake!!! :wink:

but to take my mind off things, i am going to an opera about the life of anne boleyn tomorrow evening, yay!! should be good!!


Thats sounds great - enjoy. Though, if the opera shows her as being guilty of all that she was accused of - don't believe it!! Queen Anne Boleyn was completely innocent of all charges.

oh and also, what on earth has happened to the new board design? i cant say i like it that much


Yes, I just noticed that and I agree - I don't like it either!! I want the old board back!!! :?

Best Wishes,

Bess


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Postby lidimy » Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:50 pm

yay i have an anne boleyn enthusiast!! finally someone who believes in her innocence too! :D

sounds kinda like a bad mistake you made!! i read all your dress diaries, they are very useful cos then i can read your mistakes and not do them myself!!


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Postby myladyswardrobe » Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:09 pm

yay i have an anne boleyn enthusiast!! finally someone who believes in her innocence too!


Yup - I'm definitely an Anne Boleyn enthusiast. Have you seen "Anne of the Thousand Days" with Genevieve Bujold as Anne? It was filmed in 1969. The gowns aren't that bad and the story really does show that Anne was innocent. And there is Eriv Ives' book "Anne Boleyn" (and a newer one) which is the best book about Anne.

And I was one of her "ladies in waiting/lady jailer" in an episode of "Days that Shook the World - series 2". It was about Anne and her last hours. It was filmed at Kentwell Hall in May 2004 (the execution scene was at Hedingham Castle and was actually ON her execution date of 19th May!!). It was a very good episode using Eric Ives book as the main sources (good!) and showed Anne in a very good light.

sounds kinda like a bad mistake you made!! i read all your dress diaries, they are very useful cos then i can read your mistakes and not do them myself!!


It was the black velvet doublet gown on my website. The front closing had to be completely redone. It turned out much better but was stressful!!

I'm glad that my mistakes pages help - that's what I put them up for!! :lol:

Anyway, I better wander off up to bed - its a 4.45 am start for me as I have to be in London in my office for 8! :cry:

Take care

Bess.


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Postby lidimy » Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:29 pm

aw poor you :( well school too, but not quite that early!!
did watch anne of a thousand days in a history lesson. dont remember that much of it though :(

the best (and only) book i read about anne boleyn was by joanna denny. it was absaloutly brilliant, IMO. and i got J.D to sign her other book for me too, about katherine howard. very good also :D


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Postby lidimy » Fri Oct 06, 2006 3:53 pm

woo the anne boleyn opera was great :D it showed her in a very sympathetic light, thankgoodness, though the costumes were absaloutely dreadful!! lol. apart from that the voices were amazing, and for all that, where else can you go where you can hear 'pastyme with goode companye' played live? :D


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Postby myladyswardrobe » Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:19 pm

Glad you enjoyed it. Sadly, costumes tend to be rather dreadful for these sorts of things!! Do you know whose opera it was?

where else can you go where you can hear 'pastyme with goode companye' played live?


Well, Kentwell does come to mind!! :P

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Postby lidimy » Sat Oct 07, 2006 8:26 pm

heh heh i guess :P

dont know whose opera it was, but the norwich early dance group danced for them (very good looking young man present therein, but was too shy to talk to him after :oops: )

looking for some tudor-ish entertainment, i re-visited your lovely site and saw the corset you are/were making - looking at the back unfinished view, is that how low you mean by the bra strap point?

would have photographic updates of my dress making, but i didnt have enough energy even to thread a needle this afternoon :( sorry!

btw - your beautiful dresses were an instant winner with my mum :D (as is your helpfulness :D )


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Postby lidimy » Sun Oct 08, 2006 2:37 pm

I HAVE IT!! I HAVE THE TUDOR TAILOR!!!!! YAY!!!

already in the short drive back home i learnt all about pleats. i always wondered what catridge pleats were, and i also found out that the pleats i used on my petticoat and kirtle are, apparently knife pleats.

if thats wrong, and i shouldnt have used knife pleats (i didnt know anything about them so i just did what seemed obvious) do tell me, but dont expect me to change it!! it took hours of work and you wont see them anyway!! everyone makes mistakes in the first gown, as you always say, so if its wrong, it can be my mistake :) im not trying to be obstinate, just the thought of taking out 3 lines of stitching, and re doing the pleats etc fills me with dread. :(
but then, it might be right after all and i have nothing to worry about :D


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Postby Sophia » Sun Oct 08, 2006 2:44 pm

I think the type of pleats you use really depends on the weight and quantity of fabric. I have used both types on my transitional period kirtles and gowns.

When you are short of fabric some clever panel cutting and a few knife pleats can produce enough hem an reduce the bulk at the hip level - very good if you are my my shape.

You can improve on things next time round. I have no doubt that there will be many more projects.

Happy Sukkot,

Sophia :D



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Postby lidimy » Sun Oct 08, 2006 2:51 pm

yes, chag sameach :D

my dad asked me today actually, whether i would start on another dress once, *once* i finish this one. and i really think i will. i cant think of anything else that is so time consuming, fun and rewarding!!


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Postby Sophia » Sun Oct 08, 2006 3:04 pm

The more you make the better you get.

I would also suggest you try making a few simple modern garments as this will give you an opportunity to flash your skills about elsewhere.

Also a wonderful way of having really smart clothes for the festivals without spending an arm and a leg. You can also put some serious Kavannah (intention) into them when making them. I always like to think about why it is important to honour the festival with new/best clothes as part of separating the mundane from the holy. Think about the prayers we say for Havdalah at the end of Shabbat.

I would also remind you to say a blessing when you put a new garment on. My Granny Cohen always used to say I wish you well to wear it - the traditional form is found in the morning blessings (Birkhat Ha-Shachar) "Blessed are thou, O Lord our G-d, King of the Universe, who clothest the naked".

Sophia :D

Apologies to the rest of the list for the theological interlude. :D



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Postby lidimy » Sun Oct 08, 2006 3:37 pm

yes, i always draw a line when clothes just dont become suitable for shabbat wear anymore!! its good to set things apart, as you say. its easy to run through the havdalah blessings without actually thinking how they apply to everything you do...


including clothes design, so it appears :D


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Postby Sophia » Sun Oct 08, 2006 3:50 pm

Tell me about it - I find that it is almost easier to observe the correct dress codes in my Medieval Clothes than it is by following modern fashion. Shabbosdik clothes is a wonderful idea - what I tend to do is select something new for the major festivals and then use it for Shabbos until the next major festival. That way I always have something special. After that I downgrade it to everyday wear. Over the last few year this has altered my wardrobe significantly and I am very happy.

In fact this sort of practice was originally observed by Christians until relatively recently and is still observed by some minority groups.

My very orthodox Jewish relatives who are on a limited budget due to large families still manage to ensure that everyone has something new for High Holy Days and Passover and a good outfit for Shabbos, even if everything else is mended or hand-me-downs.

Sophia :D

P.S. I still keep old tracksuit bottoms and stuff for grubby work - just don't wear them for Shabbos.



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Postby lidimy » Sun Oct 08, 2006 3:58 pm

thats exactly what i do. i have several outfits, or combinations, of clothing which i only ever wear on shabbats. wearing skirts, even if just rather plain looking, i find look good on high holy days - even if not visually impressive, the effect of wearing a skirt at all makes a difference.

to get a little more back on topic, what does 'bias cut' mean? seen it a lot but am absaloutly clueless as to its meaning :?


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Postby Sophia » Sun Oct 08, 2006 4:31 pm

Bias cut means cut at 45 degrees to the weave, i.e. on the diagonal. This is used in the medieval and tudor period for cutting hose. Because it is not used straight to the weave the fabric has more stretch.

It is used for various things in modern clothes from giving fluidity to the fabric in a skirt to bias binding tape for binding curved edges.

Sophia :D



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Postby myladyswardrobe » Sun Oct 08, 2006 6:40 pm

I HAVE IT!! I HAVE THE TUDOR TAILOR!!!!! YAY!!!


YAY indeed!!! Its a great book! Check out the acknowledgements - I'm there!!

....i learnt all about pleats. i always wondered what catridge pleats were, and i also found out that the pleats i used on my petticoat and kirtle are, apparently knife pleats.

if thats wrong, and i shouldnt have used knife pleats (i didnt know anything about them so i just did what seemed obvious) do tell me, but dont expect me to change it!! it took hours of work and you wont see them anyway!! everyone makes mistakes in the first gown, as you always say, so if its wrong, it can be my mistake im not trying to be obstinate, just the thought of taking out 3 lines of stitching, and re doing the pleats etc fills me with dread.


M'dear, I wouldn't dream of saying to take it out!! Actually, its correct as the lower layers of "skirt" should be "flatter". The outer gown should be cartridge pleated or it can be knife pleated. Best for the kirtle to be knife pleated - the TT does say that!

Have fun reading T&T.

hugs

Bess.


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Postby lidimy » Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:26 pm

its all so exciting :D
well thankgoodness about the knife pleats!! was actually getting a bit worried :D
one little query, on pg 53, where it shows the pleat techniques, what exactly is the difference between 'gatherin' and 'cartridge pleats' ? they look the same to me :oops:
also, how would you go about attaching a cartridge pleated skirt ot a bodice? sorry for jumping ahead a little!

lidi :)


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Postby myladyswardrobe » Wed Oct 11, 2006 9:51 pm

Hello!!

one little query, on pg 53, where it shows the pleat techniques, what exactly is the difference between 'gatherin' and 'cartridge pleats' ? they look the same to me


Gathering is much smaller, teeny weeny stitches and usually (but not always) the fabric is NOT lined and is fine fabric. Gathering would occur where you need a frill (e.g. for a frilled cuff or the delicate ruffles around a collar). The Cartridge Pleating, though using a similar technique, has larger stitches. Usually about 1/2 inch apart (equally spaced) upwards (can go up to 2 - 3 inches apart depending on the thickness and weight of the fabric). The fabric is usually lined (as it would be with a skirt) and the cartridge pleating is held in formal pleats. Gathered pleats are not set "formally".

also, how would you go about attaching a cartridge pleated skirt ot a bodice? sorry for jumping ahead a little!


No problem. The cartridge pleats on your skirt, once done, will be like a concertina. The TOP edge of the pleats gets attached by whip stitch to the bottom edge of your bodice. The rest of the depth of the pleat sits nicely in the small of your back.

Though its a VERY simple pleating technique, its incredibly difficult to explain in the abstract. It took me 3 years to figure it out and the light bulb moment was when I saw how someone else had done it. So, if this is still as clear as mud, then contact me off forum to nudge me so I can send you or post up a copy of a bitmap I did ages ago of how to attach cartridge pleating to the bottom of the bodice.

Please bear with me though - I am absolutely shattered as I have a major IT Computer system integration going through in work and all next week (and to the end of October actually) I am going to be working flat out! I am going to be SO exhausted by the beginning of November!!!

Anyway, if I don't post anything up, then just nudge me a few times till I do it. I NEED reminding at the moment! :D And on that note, I am wandering off to bed now!!

Best wishes

Bess.


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Postby lidimy » Wed Oct 11, 2006 10:00 pm

thankyou!! i think i understand the cartridge pleat idea, though i will definitely do a practice on a spare piece of fabric first! please do send the image though, anything pictorial is always helpful.

equally, if you can help me a little with the whipstitch thing - the picture in the book was so close up i couldnt really understand what exactly was happening.

thankyou again :)
lidi :)


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Postby lidimy » Fri Oct 20, 2006 4:21 pm

new query :)

i have come into a good quantity of deep purple cotton. however, i was wondering (ignoring the fact, for present, that they didnt have cotton yet - did they?) if this kind of fabric would be suitable turnbacks for my sleeves? only that i dont think that it is a very expensive material, yet the colour, bearing in mind the ?sumptuary? laws, is the kind that would only have been worn on silk by an earl or countess or higher.

so in short, if that doesnt make much sense, is the colour right for the fabric? and is it suitable for turnbacks and other lining?

lidi :)


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Postby Tamsin Lewis » Fri Oct 20, 2006 5:00 pm

Hi Lidi
The colour is too fine (no matter what the fabric is) unless you are portraying someone very posh (Royalty, or for linings could be Dukes etc)



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Postby lidimy » Fri Oct 20, 2006 5:16 pm

well, my main gown is already a pale pink satin, would that be ok? it was meant to be a 'posh' tudor dress to start with.

lidi


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Postby lidimy » Tue Oct 31, 2006 11:07 pm

tried to upload a piccy of my sis in all of my stuff thus far, but the stupid computer wouldnt let me :evil: pm me if you want to see it though.

lidi :)


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Postby MedicKitten » Thu Nov 02, 2006 6:54 am

I know Bess has already said it, but you really really REALLY must get your shoulder straps TIGHT!!! I was perfectly convinced that I had done so BEFORE setting out to Kentwell, and after only 3 days they were already stretching. Still havent gotten around to resetting them, but ::sighs:: I will before December 1. That's my deadline, in case last year's kit wont work for the coming year. ::crosses fingers for a really early year::


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Postby lidimy » Thu Nov 02, 2006 5:32 pm

thanks for the emphasis on this point :D

the thing is, im scared of making them so tight that the bodice will ride up and wont be a low enough neckline. how short do you suggest making the straps?

lidi :)

(do you want me to send you the piccy too?)


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Postby MedicKitten » Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:45 pm

hmmmm...i defer to Bess and Tam on whatever they say, but as long as the BODY of the bodice is tight enough, you shouldnt have a problem with it riding up. And it does have to be tight. That's another problem I had this year with continued wear. The whole thing stretched...or I got smaller. Either way, I have to take it apart, scale it down, and restitch it. Otherwise the entire weight of the kirtle will hang from your shoulder and make you deeply unhappy. Still, it's cheaper than buying all new fabric!!!


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Postby Annis » Thu Nov 02, 2006 9:10 pm

We've all been through it at some point :)


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Postby lidimy » Thu Nov 02, 2006 10:35 pm

i love your encouragement annis dearie :D

ah well. i guess it is an inevitibality.

lidi :)


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