Black cloth 17th and 18th century.

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Tod
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Black cloth 17th and 18th century.

Postby Tod » Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:35 am

I was told that black cloth was expensive and really only worn by well off people. Is this true?



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Re: Black cloth 17th and 18th century.

Postby gar450 » Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:32 pm

Black facings were worn by some regiments at the end of the 18th century.

The black dye used ran hence 50th rof known as dirty half hundred.

So perhaps it was because of that wool cloth wasnt used.

Officers used black velvet silk. Perhaps because of the dye not taking well on wool cloth. silk velvet is and was v expwnsive



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Re: Black cloth 17th and 18th century.

Postby sheepmilker » Fri Oct 05, 2012 2:29 pm

No, it was widely used by all sorts. Check out some books from Stuart Peachey et al.

In short, there were two ways to dye things black. One expensive, involving over dyeing etc, so of course,used by the well off. The other method used different dyes, was cheap but was less fast (resistant to fading), so used by "the middling sort).



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Re: Black cloth 17th and 18th century.

Postby Sophia » Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:58 pm

Poor black cloth came in two types, that which was iron gallate dyed and that which was made from brown almost black wool (Stuart Peachey sells a black almost brown russet and the Tudor Tailor sells a poor black kersey [2:2 twill]). The iron blacks do fade and are also supposed to rot the cloth, I do not know about running. My current mid-Tudor middling sort gown is made from a cloth that The Mulberry Dyer dyed for me and is something of an exercise in seeing the behaviour of the dye over time. It is already fuzzing and fading a little at the edges after this season (3 weeks of exposure to light and wear as required) and has now been put to bed for the winter in a moth proof bag in a dark cupboard.

There was also Logwood black which was initially banned as it was fugitive until the introduction of chrome mordants (not sure of date).

For a better class of black the cloth was dyed twice, once with madder and then with woad. This was I believe called mathered black. It should be noted that iron gallate was also used on the better cloth and I am not sure what the proportion of mathered black to iron gallate black was.

My knowledge of this is really limited to C15th and C16th. It might be worth consulting The Mulberry Dyer or tracking down some later texts on dying for C18th.


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Re: Black cloth 17th and 18th century.

Postby Grymm » Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:18 am

Muddyevil prob'ly, by the 18thc not so much, but prob'ly not the solid black black, blackkkkk, my eyes like pies, your eyes tell liesssssss, black like the deepest chasm of hell, a cell a where they feed me pins. whats for breakfast mother? Shadows and lies... Sorry where was I? Erm ... solid colour we get today but still pretty bl .... dark achieved by buggering about with overdyes and the ph levels in the vat and tin salts as a mordant help too. A dyers book from the late 18th talks about red/black blue/black yellow/black etc and about 18 other recipes for black ...Black, black, crawl on your hands and knees to your impending doom! Where are we sleeping tonight Mother? Father's grave


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Re: Black cloth 17th and 18th century.

Postby Sophia » Tue Oct 09, 2012 5:33 pm

Grymm wrote:Muddyevil prob'ly, by the 18thc not so much, but prob'ly not the solid black black, blackkkkk, my eyes like pies, your eyes tell liesssssss, black like the deepest chasm of hell, a cell a where they feed me pins. whats for breakfast mother? Shadows and lies... Sorry where was I? Erm ... solid colour we get today but still pretty bl .... dark achieved by buggering about with overdyes and the ph levels in the vat and tin salts as a mordant help too. A dyers book from the late 18th talks about red/black blue/black yellow/black etc and about 18 other recipes for black ...Black, black, crawl on your hands and knees to your impending doom! Where are we sleeping tonight Mother? Father's grave


You've not been taking your dried frog pills again |(


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Re: Black cloth 17th and 18th century.

Postby frances » Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:41 pm

How many people had a change of clothes anyway? There were clothes that you wore all the time and Sunday best. Richer people had more outer and more under-clothes. Most people got married in their Sunday best up until mid Victorian times, and poor people until later than this. Where was the money to buy black?

Aristocratic clothes? Money was left in wills to buy black cloth for the mourners. Servants liveries could be black to show off. Black cloth - you could write quite a fat book on the subject.



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Re: Black cloth 17th and 18th century.

Postby Alice the Huswyf » Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:38 am

Please Johnny, no.

And for the rest of us - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wj84tfS7ag4


Is it 'coz I is middewl clarse, aih?


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