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late 15th century short cloaks.

Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 8:23 am
by Zachos
Hey guys. As we know, in the late 15th century (1460-75) it was considered rather rude to walk around just in your doublet, so I'm in the process of sorting out what should go over the top.

I've been interested in a style cloak that Historic enterprises do a reconstruction of here, but have only seen one original where it is worn over just a doublet. Does anyone have any additional images of cloaks like this, either worn with or without a gown/cote underneath?

The other option is of course to go straight for the cote/gown, as worn here:

Image

Any suggestions or images would be great.

Zac

Re: late 15th century short cloaks.

Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 10:16 am
by wulfenganck
Hmm, I think I have seen that sort of short cloak over a doublet in the Housebook Wolfegg, otherwise known as the "Venus and Mars" housebook, made around/after 1480. Here is an example: http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:Hausbuch_Wolfegg_13r_Mars.jpg&filetimestamp=20080209164515
Here are some more pictures: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hausbuch_%28Schloss_Wolfegg%29

There may be more examples, but this is for the moment the only one to come to my mind. It's german 'though (and even referring more to the southern part of the HRE), therefore I'd definitely check for period examples in your region.

Re: late 15th century short cloaks.

Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:03 pm
by Colin Middleton
Zachos wrote:Hey guys. As we know, in the late 15th century (1460-75) it was considered rather rude to walk around just in your doublet, so I'm in the process of sorting out what should go over the top.

I've been interested in a style cloak that Historic enterprises do a reconstruction of here, but have only seen one original where it is worn over just a doublet. Does anyone have any additional images of cloaks like this, either worn with or without a gown/cote underneath?

The other option is of course to go straight for the cote/gown, as worn here:

Image

Any suggestions or images would be great.

Zac


I can't see anyone wearing a cloak. The guys at the bottom of the picture appear to be a herald and persuivants and are wearing their tabbards of office.

There is a dandy wearing a hip-length tabbard over his doublet from the 1450's. The only picture that I can remember of him is in the scrolling pictures on Sarah Thursfield's site, but I know that he's from a painting some-where.

Re: late 15th century short cloaks.

Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 2:17 pm
by Tiamat
You could also go with a giornea. I'm not sure if they were worn beyond Italy, though. You can wear them over a doublet or over a gown.

Re: late 15th century short cloaks.

Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:03 pm
by Zachos
Colin Middleton wrote:
Zachos wrote:Hey guys. As we know, in the late 15th century (1460-75) it was considered rather rude to walk around just in your doublet, so I'm in the process of sorting out what should go over the top.

I've been interested in a style cloak that Historic enterprises do a reconstruction of here, but have only seen one original where it is worn over just a doublet. Does anyone have any additional images of cloaks like this, either worn with or without a gown/cote underneath?

The other option is of course to go straight for the cote/gown, as worn here:

Image

Any suggestions or images would be great.

Zac


I can't see anyone wearing a cloak. The guys at the bottom of the picture appear to be a herald and persuivants and are wearing their tabbards of office.

There is a dandy wearing a hip-length tabbard over his doublet from the 1450's. The only picture that I can remember of him is in the scrolling pictures on Sarah Thursfield's site, but I know that he's from a painting some-where.



The image shown is to demonstrate the gown. I've got a picture of a dude with a cloak over just a doublet, but it's in a book and I can't be bothered scanning it in.

Thanks Wulfengack. Those are really helpful. I think I will make a short cloak now, as those images are a lot more clear about what they look like.

As for the Giornea, I'm not sure I've seen an image of one of those outside of italy. I might be wrong about that though.

Zac

Re: late 15th century short cloaks.

Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:38 pm
by Colin Middleton
:doh: Sorry Zachos, I follow what you're on about now. I must be more careful when skim-reading! :$ I can't see the short cloack link at work as it's been blocked!

Best wishes

Colin

Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2011 8:54 pm
by frances
If you make a short cloak, please make it out of some substantial stuff. It is difficult to suspend believe when there are short cloaks wafting around in the breeze. Or if the fabric is thin, put some weights around the hem. Why wear a cloak if it does not stay still long enough to be admired, and is not stable enough to wrap around the body and provide some warmth when sitting on a horse?

Just one of my, very few, bees in my bonnet.

Re: late 15th century short cloaks.

Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2011 10:07 pm
by lidimy
Fear not, Frances.

Whatever Zac makes, he will make sure it is admired... :roll: :D

Re: late 15th century short cloaks.

Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 9:56 am
by Zachos
I've got a lovely mid weight wool, with a silk to line it, just ready to be turned into the cloak. It should be just heavy enough to stay in place, and just light enough to give flashes ofthe silk underneath.

Colin: The image of the HE short cloak is from their facebook page, which is probably why it isn't showing. It isn't too important now, as I'll be using a simpler design. I might turn this thread into an information and progress thread though, if people would like.

Zac

Re: late 15th century short cloaks.

Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 8:52 am
by Alice the Huswyf
Nothing Ialian - camorra, giorna, camisa, several styles of gown and hat - would be appropriate in Engand at this date, unless it was worn by an Italian Ambassador.

Re: late 15th century short cloaks.

Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 12:36 pm
by Colin Middleton
Zachos wrote:Colin: The image of the HE short cloak is from their facebook page, which is probably why it isn't showing. It isn't too important now, as I'll be using a simpler design. I might turn this thread into an information and progress thread though, if people would like.


That'll be why, thanks.

Colin

Re: late 15th century short cloaks.

Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 9:09 pm
by Marcus Woodhouse
I imagine the Italian community of Southampton and London might have worn a gorneacia. After the Flemish the Lombards were the largest alien population in 15th century England. I still would advise against it though, my wife has told me that after hose it is the hardest garment she has made for me.

Re: late 15th century short cloaks.

Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 9:25 pm
by Alice the Huswyf
Well, of course they would, wouldn't they, Markie-poo! HOnestly - you boys are so literal...........

Re: late 15th century short cloaks.

Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:58 pm
by houseoffreyja
I'm going to try and make some of these capes for Tewksbury. We already make Travellers cloaks and these are quite similar.
Pop in and see us, if you are interested in these.
Elaine
House of Freyja