Page 1 of 1

'Templars' headdress- constructive criticism please

Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:20 pm
by sally
Gareth and I have just finished this headdress and we'd like some constructive criticism please as its the first one like this we've done.
Shape is based on a handful of effigy/churchbrass images and the construction is in hand forged and drawn brass and bronze wire with a punched decoration, with the goffered veil done in linen.
Should it be more decorative? We dithered about fitting small freshwater pearls to some of the latticework, and I suspect I should remake the veil in a finer linen. What else?

Re: 'Templars' headdress- constructive criticism please

Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 2:02 pm
by sally
Gareth has decided he wants to put alternate small garnet beads and little freshwater pearls on the latticework, good idea? bad idea?

Re: 'Templars' headdress- constructive criticism please

Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 2:08 pm
by Colin Middleton
I have a vague sense that the pearls were found on cauls rather than 'solid' items like this. But then I don't know much about the subject.

Other than that, it's a lovely piece of work.

Re: 'Templars' headdress- constructive criticism please

Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:16 pm
by kate/bob
looks beautiful, but can't add any useful comments as not my period!

Re: 'Templars' headdress- constructive criticism please

Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:02 pm
by Lord Byron
kate/bob wrote:looks beautiful, but can't add any useful comments as not my period!


"A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away.." :angel:

Looks very nice :thumbup:

Re: 'Templars' headdress- constructive criticism please

Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:40 am
by Chris T
Firstly, I would like to say this obviously took much skilled work, and looks good, but you asked for constructive criticism: I do not want to restart the "they did not have brass" debate, as they did, but to my eye the brass is a slight problem. Obviously a low status woman would not wear an item like this, while a high status one would probably not use brass.

For a relativly small amount of money it should be possible to get it silver plated, which I think would give it a whole different ambience.
As it is it looks slightly uncomfortable. A leather lining for the brow band may help comfort and improve fit, reducing distortion. It is quite OK to glue this on (carefully :-)) as they did have glue too: to those who do not know always use flexible setting glues with leather, not things like superglue or epoxy which set hard.

Re: 'Templars' headdress- constructive criticism please

Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 2:04 pm
by John Waller
Chris T wrote:For a relativly small amount of money it should be possible to get it silver plated.


If anyone knows where I can get a brass belt plate silver plated for less than the original plate cost cost do let me know. I've had no joy so far.

Re: 'Templars' headdress- constructive criticism please

Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:34 pm
by guthrie
Chris T wrote: I do not want to restart the "they did not have brass" debate,

What kind of moron thinks they didn't? Production was ongoing in the 9th century, and it was popular enough that Theophilus describes its manufacture in the 12th century.

Re: 'Templars' headdress- constructive criticism please

Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 10:07 pm
by Chris T
Brass: Believe me, I have been lectured loud and long on the subject: "informed" oppinion insists that brass was not made in England before 1700s :-)

John: I can get plating done. I do not know exactly what you want done, so could not give a cost estimate, but PM me or see me at my stall at TORM if you are going (Christophus)

Re: 'Templars' headdress- constructive criticism please

Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 1:45 pm
by Colin Middleton
Is that because before the 17th C brass was called latten?

Re: 'Templars' headdress- constructive criticism please

Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:11 pm
by guthrie
Sorry for hijacking the thread, but yes, I understand brass wasn't made in England before the 17th century, but funnily enough they had things called ships in which to bring in things made in other countries.
As for the names of metals its all horribly complicated and I can't be bothered to look it all up again right now.
Hmm I'll be at Torm on Friday afternoon, I might wander by your stall.

Re: 'Templars' headdress- constructive criticism please

Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 2:42 pm
by ada-anne
Wow, that is really gorgeous! I remember trying to make one of these when I was a poor student, out of strip brass - it didn't work very well! Do tell, how do you get the hair inside the tubes?

Personally, I hadn't heard the term "templars" before - I know them as crespinettes. When I first saw the thread I was going to criticise the title because the headdress was too late for Crusaders - now I understand, but you might want to avoid that confusion.

I agree the veil should be much lighter, and the edging should be more of a wavy ruffle than a flattened pleat. My books are all packed away but from memory I think the corners of the veil should be rounded and the edging might go all the way round - of course that's hard to tell from brasses. I seem to remember reading about a weaving method that would make the edge stretched so that it ruffles up - but that would only be possible on the straight edge. But it would look better with a very light edging gathered on rather than pleated, attached with the tiniest seam you can. Or just leave it plain, rather than anything too heavy.

To me, this version is simple and very sweet. I would suggest you keep this version and offer to fancy it up as much as people want - garnets and pearls on the latticework sounds yummy, but should perhaps be a second step after stones on the brow band.

BTW - I went looking for 14th century headdresses and this gave me a fright!
http://www.heritage-print.com/pictures_ ... -1910.html

Re: 'Templars' headdress- constructive criticism please

Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 2:02 am
by myladyswardrobe
Its gorgeous!

Re: 'Templars' headdress- constructive criticism please

Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 9:35 pm
by Theotherone
If it's any help Queen phillipa dosen't seem to have a viel and althought the brow band may have had stones or some such the side bits look plain http://www.webhistoryofengland.com/wp-c ... inault.jpg

Re: 'Templars' headdress- constructive criticism please

Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 1:47 pm
by Colin Middleton
ada-anne wrote:BTW - I went looking for 14th century headdresses and this gave me a fright!
http://www.heritage-print.com/pictures_ ... -1910.html


:D You've got to love Victorian interpretations!

Re: 'Templars' headdress- constructive criticism please

Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 2:00 pm
by Simon Atford
Colin Middleton wrote:
ada-anne wrote:BTW - I went looking for 14th century headdresses and this gave me a fright!
http://www.heritage-print.com/pictures_ ... -1910.html


:D You've got to love Victorian interpretations!


Looks some sort elbaorate ear muffs :crazy:

Re: 'Templars' headdress- constructive criticism please

Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 1:42 pm
by Colin Middleton
Good point, looking at it again, that may be a bad interpretation of a caul, which is a less structured garment that remains fashionable quite a bit later.

Re: 'Templars' headdress- constructive criticism please

Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 2:38 pm
by ada-anne
Terminology is always unreliable, but I believe it's a too-squishy interpretation of the really extreme crespines, like Beatrice Countess of Arundel: http://www.artoftheprint.com/artistpage ... untess.htm

There are several effigies and brasses showing similar headdresses, some of them you wonder how they would stay up in real life!