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A mystery of hose attachment

Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 4:26 pm
by Spurious
Recently I came across an image of Saint Erasmus by Dieric Bouts dated to sometime around/before 1466.
Image
Not this copy but one in a book of saints, hence being able to get a nice close look at it.

What caught my eye was the man on the right, who apart from having separate leg hose, appears to have his hose attached to a garment beneath his shirt, which is apparently laced up the front.
Image

But he also appears to have the tell-tale double spots of point holes on his shirt. I''m not sure if the shirt is tucked into the back item as it appears (to me) to be coming out over the groin (the thick black line being a piece of cord used as a belt if not maybe?)
Image

A lot of things about this seem curious, so does anyone know just what I'm looking at here, or of other examples?

Re: A mystery of hose attachment

Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:21 pm
by Neibelungen
To my eye, judging by the very subtle colour difference between the white shirt and the very pale cream of the pointed waist band thing, it looks like a belted doublet folded down around the waist. What your seeing is the inside front lining of the doublet. If there were a pair of dark sleeves hanging down from his waistband/belt round the back you'd probably have no doubts.

Basically I'd think he's rolled his doublet down round his waist and is toiling in 'shirt-sleves' as it were ?

Re: A mystery of hose attachment

Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:23 pm
by Alan E
I think you are mistaking the white (linen?) lining of his doublet (which is IMO folded down) for an extension of his white (linen?) shirt.

The thick black line above the inverted V of his (brown? black?) doublet is IMO the fold of his doublet, the white above it his shirt and the white below it (with point-holes for fastening in front) is the lining of the doublet. Because this is folded outwards, it is outside the (brown/black) to which his hose are laced.

Simple way of wearing the doublet as a belt, by unlacing the front (except the last lacing), removing the arms and folding it downwards.

Edit to add:
Ahhhh!!! second then (maybe the lack of sleeves hanging down mean it's a sleeveless doublet :devil: )

Re: A mystery of hose attachment

Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:27 pm
by Neibelungen
Snap !!!

:lol:

Re: A mystery of hose attachment

Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:35 pm
by Spurious
Thanks, the complete lack of visible sleeves/doublet back really does confuse the whole thing.

Re: A mystery of hose attachment

Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 1:04 am
by Zachos
When I wear my doublet like this, I tie the sleeves behind my back to keep them off the floor. It could be a sleeveless doublet though, as they did all sorts of strange things in Italy, and this image screams Italian to me.

Re: A mystery of hose attachment

Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 11:35 am
by Marcus Woodhouse
What iz dis thing you call strange?

Re: A mystery of hose attachment

Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:32 pm
by gregory23b
this one gives a clearer view.

St John altarpiece Van der Weyden


Zach, the OP image is Flemish, although the presence of the Giornata in the man at the back looks very Italian, not surprising really, as the Flemish painters did have connections with Italy and the rest of europe.