archaeology on this anyone ?

Making, Pictures, Queries, Resources

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
Brian la Zouche
Posts: 426
Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2010 6:07 am
Location: Ashby dela Zouch, Leics
Contact:

archaeology on this anyone ?

Postby Brian la Zouche » Sat Feb 19, 2011 6:28 pm

this is a linen gambeson ( lined with cotton, which i intend to replace with linen, simply as i prefer linen ) front fastening ( but none fitted yet ) it comes to about mid thigh length. it fits nice on the body, but when bending my elbows it becomes very restrictive, and as i do archery, i should like to cut down the sleeve length to elbow level, as much as i have searched the net, and i can find many traders who will sell short sleeve gambesons, none have come back to me with any historical evidence of these, the period i wish to portray is the latter part of 100YW and early WOTR, so does anyone have any links or comments as to how authentic a short sleeved gambeson would be in that range of periods ??


i could justify it by the reasoning of ''well if someone had one and the sleeves got ripped/burnt/ frayed they would shorten the length as opposed to throwing it away'' BUT i would like to know if acceptable historicly before it says hello to mr sissors

any help welcome
Attachments
gamb 1.jpg


"I don't know what you're doing with that bowling ball, girly. But I'm not gonna stand by and let a lady do a man's job."

User avatar
Brian la Zouche
Posts: 426
Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2010 6:07 am
Location: Ashby dela Zouch, Leics
Contact:

Re: archaeology on this anyone ?

Postby Brian la Zouche » Sun Feb 20, 2011 9:22 pm

anyone ?


"I don't know what you're doing with that bowling ball, girly. But I'm not gonna stand by and let a lady do a man's job."

User avatar
Hinny Annie
Posts: 463
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 6:37 pm
Location: Sometimes Sunny Northumberland
Contact:

Re: archaeology on this anyone ?

Postby Hinny Annie » Sun Feb 20, 2011 9:40 pm

have you asked Nigel at The Padded Armour Company ? he posts on here as Nigel


Boga Sceal Straele - a bow shall be for arrows



www.apieceofhistory.co.uk

kate/bob
Posts: 243
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 10:00 pm
Location: deepest Staffordshire

Re: archaeology on this anyone ?

Postby kate/bob » Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:34 pm

could you not widen the sleeves rather than chopping them off? Should be possible if there's a reasonable seam allowance. If there isn;t you could add a gore in. I think this would be more authentic. I can't think of any pictures of archers with short sleeved padding, but lots with long sleeves. I can shoot in my padding with long sleeves.



User avatar
chrisanson
Post Centurion
Posts: 704
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2006 10:23 pm
Location: Dudley
Contact:

Re: archaeology on this anyone ?

Postby chrisanson » Mon Feb 21, 2011 4:46 pm

personally i wouldnt see a problem with shortening the sleeves, i am sure folks modified things for comfort/efficiency back then just as much as things are modified now.



User avatar
Brian la Zouche
Posts: 426
Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2010 6:07 am
Location: Ashby dela Zouch, Leics
Contact:

Re: archaeology on this anyone ?

Postby Brian la Zouche » Mon Feb 21, 2011 4:57 pm

kate/bob wrote:could you not widen the sleeves rather than chopping them off? Should be possible if there's a reasonable seam allowance. If there isn;t you could add a gore in. I think this would be more authentic. I can't think of any pictures of archers with short sleeved padding, but lots with long sleeves. I can shoot in my padding with long sleeves.

not really by time i got matching material and paid to have it done ( too big a job for my skills ) cheaper to buy another

like i posted i can find no illustration of short sleeved ones, yet most traders who do gambesons also offer half sleeved and even no sleeves < or open at arm pits

mr sissors on hold :D


"I don't know what you're doing with that bowling ball, girly. But I'm not gonna stand by and let a lady do a man's job."

User avatar
Brian la Zouche
Posts: 426
Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2010 6:07 am
Location: Ashby dela Zouch, Leics
Contact:

Re: archaeology on this anyone ?

Postby Brian la Zouche » Mon Feb 21, 2011 5:07 pm

chrisanson wrote:personally i wouldnt see a problem with shortening the sleeves, i am sure folks modified things for comfort/efficiency back then just as much as things are modified now.



to be honest thats my way of thinking too, no mater what the time period, people were not idiots, but you know what its like with some groups,

there are many ways to justify most things, but id sooner find out for sure if its historical or not, whats really wierd is so many traders sell short sleeved ones, yet i cant find anything on the net to back this up,

common sense should prevail today as im sure it did hundreds of tears ago, but i see so much griping about incorrect kit, i'd sooner wait untill i know for sure
ty for replies.. to be honest i guess i'm hoping someone will come up with some historical eveidence they were used, but i do bow to those with more knowledge, and if its not correct i wont use it,, i dont facy just soft kit, yet i neither fancy maille or plate

maybe i'll try confussed dot com :D


"I don't know what you're doing with that bowling ball, girly. But I'm not gonna stand by and let a lady do a man's job."

User avatar
Strickland
Posts: 439
Joined: Tue May 26, 2009 11:53 am
Location: Cornwall
Contact:

Re: archaeology on this anyone ?

Postby Strickland » Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:10 pm

Brian, if you feel up to it, at the inner elbow of each arm (put the jack on and mark up with some chalk where your arm bends) couldnt you slice it open (or do it from the inside-turn inside out if it will go) and take out some of the padding in a large 'eye' shape to loosen up that area and give the movement you need, thereby keeping the full length sleeves?? This way of not bulking out the places with most movement is done on layered jacks around the waist I believe. Just a suggestion!! See you at the ILHF most likely anyways!

Cheers!!

Neil


Its not the years in your life that count, but the life in your years. Nullum est coclear!!!

User avatar
Brian la Zouche
Posts: 426
Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2010 6:07 am
Location: Ashby dela Zouch, Leics
Contact:

Re: archaeology on this anyone ?

Postby Brian la Zouche » Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:56 pm

thanks neil, the more ideas the better, i was going to ask spes at the market, as they make some nice ones, ( although the short sleeved one is later than my prefered period ) just to see if they can give me a steer on it. logic dictates people would, (as they still do) adapt, to suit needs and availability, but i'd prefer historical evidance, so im doing nothing to it untill im sure, failing that its just soft kit for me ;)

see you friday

B


"I don't know what you're doing with that bowling ball, girly. But I'm not gonna stand by and let a lady do a man's job."

User avatar
The Methley Archer
Posts: 299
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2005 3:32 pm
Location: Methley, Leeds, West Riding of Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: archaeology on this anyone ?

Postby The Methley Archer » Tue Feb 22, 2011 7:54 am

Why don't you look at The Company of St George website and their PDF magizines called Dragons. One of the issues has an article on jacks. But just so your aware, the images will be mostly Europeon as they portry a Burgundian gunners.


Daughters are a fathers punishment for being a man

User avatar
Brian la Zouche
Posts: 426
Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2010 6:07 am
Location: Ashby dela Zouch, Leics
Contact:

Re: archaeology on this anyone ?

Postby Brian la Zouche » Tue Feb 22, 2011 7:57 pm

ty im on that now :D
yep looked at it ,most of the item date wise say late 15th cent, so im not sure how much they differ from my time scale

but ty any way

i think i'll just reline it and add ties, and simply not wear it when targeting, would have been interesting to find an illustration of a short sleeved one tho. but hey ho :D


"I don't know what you're doing with that bowling ball, girly. But I'm not gonna stand by and let a lady do a man's job."

User avatar
Brian la Zouche
Posts: 426
Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2010 6:07 am
Location: Ashby dela Zouch, Leics
Contact:

Re: archaeology on this anyone ?

Postby Brian la Zouche » Wed Feb 23, 2011 8:53 pm

just noticed this..

bottom left figure in green on floor = pattern as of a gambeson, kinda looks like rolled sleeves, but thats quite hard to do with any padded items of any thickness...

bottom right = ( dead knight ) again pattern as per gambeson with dagged edge

middle right = standing figure with tan pattern as per gambesons, again looks like rolled up. but again thats quite hard, maybe they are depicting a turned up hem..

as its all conjecture tho, i'll still keep it as it is, but if any one comes up with any other examples id be most interested
Attachments
mb1.gif


"I don't know what you're doing with that bowling ball, girly. But I'm not gonna stand by and let a lady do a man's job."

Nigel
Post Knight
Posts: 1675
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 7:45 am
Location: Pontefract
Contact:

Re: archaeology on this anyone ?

Postby Nigel » Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:56 am

Ok a a fairly basic point from the pic of the garment that you posted.

The evidence above is from c1265 you then want to extraolate that onto a garment which by its construction and length looks as tho its more suited to the C15th.

Somethign which is quite simply wrong


There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

User avatar
Brian la Zouche
Posts: 426
Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2010 6:07 am
Location: Ashby dela Zouch, Leics
Contact:

Re: archaeology on this anyone ?

Postby Brian la Zouche » Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:15 am

yeah i know, the gamb IS for use with WOTR,

i only added the picture from the 'MB' to show that what looks like short sleeved gambs ''could'' be shown,

i had/ have no intention of using it for 13th cent, it simply relates to my original question of finding historical data on short sleeved gambs, and not to justify the use for the period

see my 1st post of

'' the period i wish to portray is the latter part of 100YW and early WOTR, so does anyone have any links or comments as to how authentic a short sleeved gambeson would be in that range of periods ?? ''

simples


"I don't know what you're doing with that bowling ball, girly. But I'm not gonna stand by and let a lady do a man's job."

Nigel
Post Knight
Posts: 1675
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 7:45 am
Location: Pontefract
Contact:

Re: archaeology on this anyone ?

Postby Nigel » Sun Feb 27, 2011 11:33 am

ok missed that

so why use evidence from the 1260's for something almost 200 years later


There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

User avatar
Brendan C
Posts: 306
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2005 2:17 pm
Location: Southampton, Hampshire

Re: archaeology on this anyone ?

Postby Brendan C » Sun Feb 27, 2011 2:17 pm

Have to admit, I'm with Nige on this

Brian, why are you using a manuscript that is so far back from the period you are interested in?

Brendan C


That's not a new dawn, that's some Norman bastard burning down your village

User avatar
Brian la Zouche
Posts: 426
Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2010 6:07 am
Location: Ashby dela Zouch, Leics
Contact:

Re: archaeology on this anyone ?

Postby Brian la Zouche » Sun Feb 27, 2011 2:55 pm

Brian la Zouche wrote:this is a linen gambeson ( lined with cotton, which i intend to replace with linen, simply as i prefer linen ) front fastening ( but none fitted yet ) it comes to about mid thigh length. it fits nice on the body, but when bending my elbows it becomes very restrictive, and as i do archery, i should like to cut down the sleeve length to elbow level, as much as i have searched the net, and i can find many traders who will sell short sleeve gambesons, none have come back to me with any historical evidence of these, the period i wish to portray is the latter part of 100YW and early WOTR, so does anyone have any links or comments as to how authentic a short sleeved gambeson would be in that range of periods ??

any help welcome

FFS try reading the posts, !!!!
the only reason i stuck the pic up from the bible was to show what '' could have been '' short sleeved, as my original post asked if anyone had any historical data on short sleeved, and the bible pic was just as i came across it, it wasnt posted in referance to the picture of my gamb. or for any justification


"I don't know what you're doing with that bowling ball, girly. But I'm not gonna stand by and let a lady do a man's job."

User avatar
Brendan C
Posts: 306
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2005 2:17 pm
Location: Southampton, Hampshire

Re: archaeology on this anyone ?

Postby Brendan C » Sun Feb 27, 2011 3:29 pm

With the greatest respect Brian, I did read the posts - but the fact is that you are referencing a manuscript which is dated at least 100 years before the beginning of the period of your interest. That is like a 4th century Roman enthusiast using a 1st / 2nd century Lorica segmentata reference to research 4th century period kit - and the period you are interested had come forward in leaps and bounds from the mid 13th century.

I am merely presenting the facts; as a former archaeologist, that is what I used to do

I hope someone can give you the correct reference you need - good luck with that

Regards

Brendan C


That's not a new dawn, that's some Norman bastard burning down your village

Nigel
Post Knight
Posts: 1675
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 7:45 am
Location: Pontefract
Contact:

Re: archaeology on this anyone ?

Postby Nigel » Sun Feb 27, 2011 7:02 pm

Ok we were trying to help is there any reason to fly off the handle ? Nope

I honestly don't recall any evidence ofr short sleeved jacks in any context and the one that springs to mind re archery has full length sleeves

Hopefully somebody else has another source ?


There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

User avatar
Martin
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2712
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:30 am
Location: wales

Re: archaeology on this anyone ?

Postby Martin » Mon Feb 28, 2011 10:17 am

I would use the "found it on a dead body post battle, didn't fit me so I made it fit by removing some bits !" IMHO that would be 100% aufentic as no poor squaddie of the time would pass up some quality protection cos it didn't fit or wasn't made for one lol :)


"you dont make friends with salad!"

User avatar
gregory23b
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2923
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:46 pm
Location: Gyppeswyk, Suffolk

Re: archaeology on this anyone ?

Postby gregory23b » Tue Mar 01, 2011 2:53 pm

Rather than selling it for some quick cash? Or ignorfing it entirely and flogging a sword or dagger, smaller and often more valuable.

Moreover, the gambeson in question is more like an early type, say an aketon, so the chances of wotr soldier robbing such a body, unless in a war grave, are slim. Jacks do not last as long as metal armour, they are prone to rotting.

Plus, if the jack had failed the original wearer (stiff) why would anyone want it if it had holes in it, not to mention the blood.

The gamby in question needs adjustment to suit the WOTR era, not a big deal, I think the guys have been very helpful.


middle english dictionary

Isabela on G23b "...somehow more approachable in real life"

http://medievalcolours.blogspot.com

"I know my place." Alice the Huswyf

User avatar
Colin Middleton
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2037
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:31 pm
Location: Sheffield
Contact:

Re: archaeology on this anyone ?

Postby Colin Middleton » Fri Mar 04, 2011 2:13 pm

Strickland wrote:Brian, if you feel up to it, at the inner elbow of each arm (put the jack on and mark up with some chalk where your arm bends) couldnt you slice it open (or do it from the inside-turn inside out if it will go) and take out some of the padding in a large 'eye' shape to loosen up that area and give the movement you need, thereby keeping the full length sleeves?? This way of not bulking out the places with most movement is done on layered jacks around the waist I believe. Just a suggestion!! See you at the ILHF most likely anyways!
Cheers!!
Neil

There is a famous picture from the Marterdom of St Ursula (Memling?) which appears to show just this. I've tried it and it's quite simple to do and improves mobility considerably. If you're replacing the linning, you can do it from the inside and it'll look like it was designed that way.
It doesn't even take as much time to do as cutting the sleeves off!

I have a vague recolection of 15th C sleeveless jacks, but I'm not sure about short sleeved ones. Does Foissart show one or two?

As to the 'I'll chop the sleeves off to make it more comfortable' argument, you're wearing it to stop people putting sharp things in you. If you chop the sleeves down, you're exposing your fore-arms to attack and they're an easier target than your torso becuase they're out infront of you. Is it really more comfortable to expose your arms to danger?


Colin

"May 'Blood, blood, blood' be your motto!"

Image

User avatar
gregory23b
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2923
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:46 pm
Location: Gyppeswyk, Suffolk

Re: archaeology on this anyone ?

Postby gregory23b » Mon Mar 07, 2011 6:31 pm

"I have a vague recolection of 15th C sleeveless jacks,"

Possibly mahoitered sleeved jacks, ie puffed sleeves, as in Schilling and Memlinc, but with actual sleeves attached, but they seem to be not padded down the forearm. Also there is the possibility of half sleeved jacks, ie upper arm only, you will need to check the chronicles for that, I thought that some were online, but can't find them.


middle english dictionary

Isabela on G23b "...somehow more approachable in real life"

http://medievalcolours.blogspot.com

"I know my place." Alice the Huswyf

User avatar
zauberdachs
Post Centurion
Posts: 695
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:38 pm

Re: archaeology on this anyone ?

Postby zauberdachs » Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:07 pm

Colin Middleton wrote:As to the 'I'll chop the sleeves off to make it more comfortable' argument, you're wearing it to stop people putting sharp things in you. If you chop the sleeves down, you're exposing your fore-arms to attack and they're an easier target than your torso becuase they're out infront of you. Is it really more comfortable to expose your arms to danger?


A very sensible observation!

Generally speaking you can rationalise to any conclusion you wish therefore it's best to stick to the evidence, people were not stupid and if they did not (from the evidence) cut off the sleeves then they did so for good reason.


Do not be loath, diligent reader, to winnow my chaff, and lay up the wheat in the storehouse of your memory. For truth regards not who is the speaker, nor in what manner it is spoken, but that the thing be true - Nennius, 8th century

User avatar
chrisanson
Post Centurion
Posts: 704
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2006 10:23 pm
Location: Dudley
Contact:

Re: archaeology on this anyone ?

Postby chrisanson » Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:24 pm

there is also the augment that it is better to be more comfortable/less restrictive and therefor safer. as is still applied to this day.



User avatar
Malvoisin
Posts: 275
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2005 11:02 am
Location: Bulewelle

Re: archaeology on this anyone ?

Postby Malvoisin » Sat Mar 12, 2011 9:52 pm

chrisanson wrote:there is also the augment that it is better to be more comfortable/less restrictive and therefor safer. as is still applied to this day.


That's right because when I buy a new crash helmet for the bike I always take the padding out because on a summers day it gets soooo hot in there!
Just like when you've got a battle field of dead to loot from you'd loot the stuff that doesn't fit quite you, right??
:crazy:


Satisfying the Bloodlust of the Masses... In peacetime

User avatar
chrisanson
Post Centurion
Posts: 704
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2006 10:23 pm
Location: Dudley
Contact:

Re: archaeology on this anyone ?

Postby chrisanson » Sat Mar 12, 2011 10:10 pm

Malvoisin wrote:
chrisanson wrote:there is also the augment that it is better to be more comfortable/less restrictive and therefor safer. as is still applied to this day.


That's right because when I buy a new crash helmet for the bike I always take the padding out because on a summers day it gets soooo hot in there!
Just like when you've got a battle field of dead to loot from you'd loot the stuff that doesn't fit quite you, right??
:crazy:



well you can fight in something you cant move in if you want :crazy:



User avatar
gregory23b
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2923
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:46 pm
Location: Gyppeswyk, Suffolk

Re: archaeology on this anyone ?

Postby gregory23b » Sun Mar 13, 2011 1:06 pm

Per sleeveless jacks.

Not sleeveless jack, but a 'trussyng doublet of fence with-out sleves'

Paston letters and Papers Vol III Letter 949

PLease note that that this bit is also part of a description of men defensibly arrayed and some were described as wearing jacks, so they are distinctly different items.

"And for sureness of oure persons, we were defensibly arrayed. I am weel remembred we had V long bowes, v sheef arws, ij speres, whereyof one of them with-out an head, i jakke, ij salettys, a trussying doublet of defense, and another trussyng doublet of defense with-out sleves. "


middle english dictionary

Isabela on G23b "...somehow more approachable in real life"

http://medievalcolours.blogspot.com

"I know my place." Alice the Huswyf


Return to “Costumes”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests