Wooden Pattens

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treforclogs
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Wooden Pattens

Postby treforclogs » Wed May 19, 2010 7:52 pm

I'm a clogmaker in N W Wales but often get asked if I can make Pattens.. so recently I've done some playing about and from the few illustrations/articles/archeological treatises around have made a couple of pairs.. What I need to know is are they acceptable/looking authentic/a viable item to produce for re-enactors..
not much to ask!!eh
All help greatlfully received including critisism.. cant improve less I know what makes them better...
cheers
Trefor Owen Cricieth Gwynedd
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janes-wardrobe
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Re: Wooden Pattens

Postby janes-wardrobe » Thu May 20, 2010 3:47 pm

Speaking from experience of wearing pattens of this type I doubt it would have a back strap. How did you come up with the back strap? I'd be interested to see your sources. All the extant ones I have seen and images I have seen of on piece pattens there is only a toe strap - set rather higher up the foot than you'd expect.

This type of patten is not practical - you have to concentrate on walking and not be trying to do anything else for fear of falling off. If you have a back strap on a one piece patten you limit the foot motion which makes things more complicated. My husand has some simple one piece low pattens that he wears without a back strap and they work equally well.

I personally think that a back strap is only likely to be present on hinged pattens. This statement is purely based on personal experience...


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Re: Wooden Pattens

Postby janes-wardrobe » Thu May 20, 2010 4:11 pm

Kindly sourced by Pavisier... http://www.larsdatter.com/pattens.htm


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Re: Wooden Pattens

Postby Colin Middleton » Fri May 21, 2010 12:40 pm

janes-wardrobe wrote:I personally think that a back strap is only likely to be present on hinged pattens. This statement is purely based on personal experience...


That's my understanding too. There are pattens with a hinge under the front of the foot, which have a back strap and there are pattens with the 'legs', but no hinge, which don't have a back strap and work more like mad flip-flops.


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Laffin Jon Terris
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Re: Wooden Pattens

Postby Laffin Jon Terris » Sat May 22, 2010 8:48 pm

As usual, I vaguely remember reading that of the two different styles (strapped and strapless) only one is correctly termed a patten. Problem is that I can't cite the source or state which style is a patten and which isn't :$

Otherwise they do have a nice shape to them- once you have sorted the strap issue how much would you charge for these?

JonT


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Re: Wooden Pattens

Postby rowana » Sat May 22, 2010 9:47 pm

I think these would be great with a hinge- I have hinged ones with a back strap.

I love the design of these ones, personally I don't think I could walk in ones without a hinge.



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Re: Wooden Pattens

Postby janes-wardrobe » Sat May 22, 2010 10:00 pm

Laffin Jon Terris wrote:As usual, I vaguely remember reading that of the two different styles (strapped and strapless) only one is correctly termed a patten. Problem is that I can't cite the source or state which style is a patten and which isn't :$

The Museum of London Shoes and Pattens book refers to both types as pattens - I know academics can get it wrong but I like to think they get things like this right.

I haven't seen this type hinged at all or with a back strap. To be honest the unhinged variety without backstrap seem to be the ones most commonly portrayed in contemporary art. Ridiculous though it sounds I think no backstrap is preferable, if the gound is uneven you have a tendency to slip out of the patten. If you had a backstrap with a high patten and your foot turned on uneven ground you're much more likely to cause yourself an injury. Again - personal opinion from experience. ;)


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Re: Wooden Pattens

Postby Alice the Huswyf » Sun May 23, 2010 10:20 am

I've sent you a message.


Is it 'coz I is middewl clarse, aih?

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Re: Wooden Pattens

Postby Colin Middleton » Mon May 24, 2010 12:55 pm

Laffin Jon Terris wrote:As usual, I vaguely remember reading that of the two different styles (strapped and strapless) only one is correctly termed a patten. Problem is that I can't cite the source or state which style is a patten and which isn't :$

Otherwise they do have a nice shape to them- once you have sorted the strap issue how much would you charge for these?

JonT


There are discussions of both Pattens and Galoshas (sp?) which imply that both are wooden over shoes. However, I've no idea which is which (or if one is something completely different). If anyone has any clues on that, I'd love to know.

As to a hinged version of these, wouldn't you just collapse into the hinge when you put your weight on it?


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Re: Wooden Pattens

Postby janes-wardrobe » Mon May 24, 2010 2:37 pm

Well I don't know about in medieval times but Galoshes are overshoes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galoshes


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Postby frances » Mon May 24, 2010 9:45 pm

I love my pattens - not hinged, no backstrap.

Trouble is walking in them seems to use the same part of the brain as playing the pipe and tabor. I have terrible trouble doing the two at the same time.

I'd quite like to try a pair of hinged with backstrap, to see if the effect is the same. I'm about a size 3 ... * hint, hint*



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Re: Wooden Pattens

Postby Colin Middleton » Tue May 25, 2010 12:34 pm

janes-wardrobe wrote:Well I don't know about in medieval times but Galoshes are overshoes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galoshes


The term may trace back to the Middle Ages, from the Gaulish shoe or gallicae. This shoe had a leather upper and a sole carved of wood. When the Romans conquered Gaul (France), they borrowed the Gaulish boot style. Nobles would wear a red leather boot with ornately carved wooden soles to display their station.


You'll forgive my scepticism over the origins of galoshas from this article. I know that there were 'Medieval Romans', but I really don't think that's what they mean here...


But some form of wooden overshoe does agree with what the real history books say. The question is what's the difference between a galosha and a patten?


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Re: Wooden Pattens

Postby Karen Larsdatter » Fri Jun 04, 2010 6:54 am

Colin Middleton wrote:But some form of wooden overshoe does agree with what the real history books say. The question is what's the difference between a galosha and a patten?

Hard to say. A galoche seems to feature a buckle ("Ne were worhty unbokelen his galoche" in The Squire's Tale) and may have just been a wooden sole ("Galache, or galoche, vndyr solynge of mannys fote"). There's a description of fur-lined ones with brass buckles ("Sexe galeys, I see, of sable with-inn, And iche one has a brown brase with bokels twayne").

Pattens, or patins ... well, hard to say. Especially since there seems to have been a distinction between a galoche and a patin -- there's a 1463-1464 reference in the Parliament Rolls indicating that "Noo Marchaunt ... bryng, sende, nor conveye ... into this Reame ... eny Wollen Bonettes ... Botes, Shoen, Galoches, or Corkes ... Pynnes, Patyns, Paknedles ..."



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Re: Wooden Pattens

Postby janes-wardrobe » Fri Jun 04, 2010 9:05 am

But Patins is French for skate - knowing the way the French use their language (after almost five years of living here) I would hazard a guess that patterns are therefore the simple undershoe version while galoshes are the overshoe variety...


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Re: Wooden Pattens

Postby Colin Middleton » Mon Jun 07, 2010 12:58 pm

janes-wardrobe wrote:But Patins is French for skate - knowing the way the French use their language (after almost five years of living here) I would hazard a guess that patterns are therefore the simple undershoe version while galoshes are the overshoe variety...


Undershoe and overshoe?


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Re: Wooden Pattens

Postby janes-wardrobe » Mon Jun 07, 2010 1:07 pm

undershoe - the version worn underneath the shoe with a simple strap to hold it in place,
overshoe - something that encompasses the whole shoe...

Modern goloshes cover the entire shoe and although words change meaning in time with usage it would seem that this is a fairly logical interpretation. Granted logic cannot be applied to all things medieval and/or French ;-)


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Re: Wooden Pattens

Postby Karen Larsdatter » Wed Jun 09, 2010 6:33 pm

Colin Middleton wrote:Undershoe and overshoe?


Well, most of what I've collected at http://larsdatter.com/pattens.htm is what I'd call an "undershoe." An overshoe, I guess, would look more like a clog (or what we'd call a clog here in the U.S., I guess that could be another variable terminology situation), covering more of the foot, rather than essentially being a sole strapped onto the foot, but I can't recall seeing medieval instances of that sort of overshoe.

Perhaps it's something like the differences between Mr. Arnolfini's and Mrs. Arnolfini's footwear? (See also http://www.nationalgallery.org.uk/paint ... i-portrait for another zoomable view.)



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Re: Wooden Pattens

Postby Brother Ranulf » Wed Jun 09, 2010 6:50 pm

Just to add to the confusion, Anglo-Norman word patin means either a patten or a clog - it must be at least distantly related to another patin meaning the broad, shallow dish used by priests (a paten) which I guess must have been of wood at some early date.

I doubt there is much connection with modern French patin for ice-skate - Anglo-Norman French is only based on Old French, it's not the same thing and there are many differences: when Marie de France came to the court of Henry II in the 12th century she had to ditch her native French and learn Norman so her new audience could understand her writing. Twelfth century ice-skates were of animal leg-bones strapped under the shoe, with a different name entirely.

As I understand it, the sparse evidence for pattens in the 12th and 13th centuries indicates they were not hinged but solid, with projections of wood or iron beneath - a bit like Japanese geta but not so tall. I have seen no evidence for clogs in England in that early period (interested to hear if anyone knows when they first appeared).


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Re: Wooden Pattens

Postby Colin Middleton » Fri Jun 11, 2010 12:46 pm

Karen Larsdatter wrote:
Colin Middleton wrote:Undershoe and overshoe?


Well, most of what I've collected at http://larsdatter.com/pattens.htm is what I'd call an "undershoe." An overshoe, I guess, would look more like a clog (or what we'd call a clog here in the U.S., I guess that could be another variable terminology situation), covering more of the foot, rather than essentially being a sole strapped onto the foot, but I can't recall seeing medieval instances of that sort of overshoe.

Perhaps it's something like the differences between Mr. Arnolfini's and Mrs. Arnolfini's footwear? (See also http://www.nationalgallery.org.uk/paint ... i-portrait for another zoomable view.)


I was thinking something like:
Pattens: Image from Ana Period Shoes

Galoshas: Image from Plantagenet Shoes


Colin

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