15th c kit for toddlers

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kate/bob
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15th c kit for toddlers

Post by kate/bob »

While I was in the car coming back from a meeting that was cancelled just as I arrived, I was thinking about mini-moose's new kit.

Could I have your thoughts on the practicality of having detachable sleeves on a small person's kirtle? It would make life easier as I wouldn't have to make short sleeved and long sleeved stuff, but I'm not sure if mini moose would be able to take them off herself.

The other thing was how badly unauthentic would a livery coat be? I can see it being much easier to get a coat on her rather than an over dress, but I'm not sure I've seen anything like it for little people.

ta

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Sophia
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Re: 15th c kit for toddlers

Post by Sophia »

If you are C15th then detachable sleeves are a no go. I would suggest a short sleeved kirtle with a long button on oversleeve (cloth ball button sewn to short sleeve near the sleeve head and buttonhole in oversleeve). Not sure about a coat, probably better to go with an overkirtle that is loose enough to pull over her head without any front lacing (If you flat line, that is sew the outer and lining together as if one, then you can open up the front of the bodice at a later date and add eyelets..

If you do end up going with a coat simply make it round necked with a simple trapezoid type shape to the body with relatively straight loosish sleeves (I know this is good for early C16th).

Another useful suggestion is to cut everthing a little loose and have generous seam allowances (particularly on the straighter seams at the sides) which will allow you to let the garments out. Again flat lining is good here as it makes for less work when you come to alter things. When allowing for growth in length you can do one of two things, have a very generous hem or make a tuck in the skirts and sleeves with the flap visible on the outside (this trick is particularly good for overkirtles and coats as it can look decorative if done well).

If you are going to TORM then try and talk to Sarah Thursfield of Mediaeval Tailor fame as she is much more knowledgeable than me.

Hope this helps :D
aka Thomasin Chedzoy, Tailor at Kentwell Hall

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Colin Middleton
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Re: 15th c kit for toddlers

Post by Colin Middleton »

Would a toddler be in a kirtle/coat? I thought that children wore loose tunic like things until they were breached.

I'd avoid a 'livery coat' until at least the age of 7. A livery is your payment for work and I'm not convinced that many lords would want to pay a toddler. Once they're old enough to be apprenticed, then they would start work allongside some-one in the household and will probably receive livery then like everyone else.

Good luck
Colin

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Alice the Huswyf
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Re: 15th c kit for toddlers

Post by Alice the Huswyf »

C15th children: A line gowns, unlined, unbelted for both sexes - once they are into shaped garment they are old enough to work. Common boys breeched at 7 years.
No longer than ankle length.
Don't bother with pin-on sleeves for small children - the layers described below will be more than adequate!
Preshrink fabric so that it is re-washable!
One linen smock, one long sleeve gown, one short sleeve gown over the top for cold weather. One huke to keep the crap off.
Construct as for a smock.
If you are not swapping with another family, make two sets of gored sleeves and two sets of side gores. As the child grows, swap the smaller sleeves and gores for the larger set.
Always include large allowances on the cuff and hem of children's clothing at any age.
Split the front and add a button or tie at the top and you have a coat, - as per the woodcut of the toddler Jesus.
Linen coif, single layer.
Simple hood for cold weather with a wide shoulder plate - recommend an open fronted hood closed with one button.
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kate/bob
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Re: 15th c kit for toddlers

Post by kate/bob »

thanks for your thoughts.

I was going to make two kirtles one long sleeved, the other short. That gives the problem of when it's cold and she's not made it to the potty in time when she's wearing her long sleeved one! Maybe she'll just have to have two long sleeved ones and pull the sleeves up if it's warm.

I didn't think that a "livery" type coat was right, I just needed people to tell me cause I quite like the thought of seeing mini-moose with her little livery and her mini flag marching along with the guys going to muster!

I'll just make bigger versions of what she had last season!

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Colin Middleton
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Re: 15th c kit for toddlers

Post by Colin Middleton »

There's nothing to stop kids having clothes in the same colours as everyone else, they just won't be livery coats. I would leave the badge off though.
Colin

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wulfenganck
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Re: 15th c kit for toddlers

Post by wulfenganck »

All the toddlers/small children's clothes I remember had long sleeves - none detachable!
I have a nicely and detailed illustrated manuscript back home from the archives in Frankfurt/Main around 1460 - 1470, where quite an amount of children from ca. 1 - 6 years are shown:
ALL are depicted wearing long gowns; ankle length; long arms; no belts; no hats or coifs;
BUT all the childrens gowns are mi-parti, IIRC from blue and red, to blue and white or blue and orange (obviously blue must have been THE favoured colour for childrens clothing...)

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Karen Larsdatter
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Re: 15th c kit for toddlers

Post by Karen Larsdatter »

http://larsdatter.com/children.htm has a few examples of 15th century toddler clothing, though most of the 15th century toddlers depicted in there seem to be boys, like this little guy from c. 1475.

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glaelia
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Re: 15th c kit for toddlers

Post by glaelia »

wulfenganck wrote: (obviously blue must have been THE favoured colour for childrens clothing...)

Or that's the colour the artist had the easiest access to ;)


Alice - could you do a rundown like that for me for 14th Century??

x

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Hecate
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Re: 15th c kit for toddlers

Post by Hecate »

Sarah Thursfield sells toddler and childrens patterns that date from (i think) the fifteenth century onwards. You can get them either direct from Sarah or from Lindy Pickard (the Cloth Hall). Also I'm sure Sarah wouldn't mind you picking her brains if you contacted her via her website.

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Dave B
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Re: 15th c kit for toddlers

Post by Dave B »

I have the Sarah thursfield book. The patterns are excellent, and easy to follow, I'm making this years set right now.

She suggests excatly the same clothes for boys and girls up to 5.

A long (knee length) shirt.
A sleeveless petticote.
A short coat for lower status,
a long gown for higher.

That's been quite practical.
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