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Mid late C15 womens coat?

Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 9:28 am
by Tod
What sort of coat would a woman wear in the WOTR period. I know there are cloaks but are there any long warm winter coats? Its for a shoemakers wife so not rich but not poor.
Any pictures would be helpful.
Thanks.

Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:49 am
by Type16
Emailing scan to you

Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:20 pm
by mally ley
I'd say not coats - wear a gown.

Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 3:09 pm
by Tod
That's like another dress? There is some thing very odd about muddyevil, no coats and held together with string :lol:
I've just about got used to every thing being tied together and being a snug fit.
18th century is much more flowing but five times the weight.
So if a woman was going out of the house she would put on another gown/dress? What if it was raining?

Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 3:29 pm
by lidimy
Tod wrote: What if it was raining?
Then you're happy because it means more mud to eat :twisted:

There are a few references to cloaks...

Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:24 pm
by Jackie Phillips
Yep, more dresses...

A woman wouldn't leave the house in just her shift and kirtle, it would be just wrong. For a working woman, she may have an overkirtle on, rather than a posh gown - an overkirtle is cut much as the one underneath but a little fuller and without fastenings. For warmth, it would be lined, often in a cheaper wool (another two layers of wool over what she already has on will be plenty I'm sure).

Then don't forget hoods - fabulous at keeping the neck and head warm; gloves - more like mittens and can be lined in fur, a shoemaker's wife could probably afford rabbit, if not something posher.

If you decide she could have a gown (and as merchant class, you wouldn't necessarily be at all poor), then, again, wool and fully lined over everything she already wears.

Cloaks are reasonably abundant, but only worn for bad weather and travelling. Have you ever tried doing anything in a cloak except sitting around a fire - useless.

Are you doing some sort of winter outdoor event? or is it for colder summer stuff?

Jackie

Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:22 pm
by Angie
Jackie, Tod is asking on my behalf. Apparently I have ice running through my veins. I only do Tewkesbury and usually end up wearing Tods livery coat because I feel the cold so easily (even on warnish days).

Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:05 am
by Tod
Just below the tempreture of ice are Angie's hands on a cool day, however the rest is rather hot :wink:
Jackie I think you will already be getting an order at the ILHF from us, this could be number 2.

15th C womens coat

Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:55 am
by Jonquil
You could make one of these- does up all the way down the front so you could leave open if you wished.

15C womens coat

Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 9:12 am
by Jonquil
This one shows the buttons better

15C womens coat

Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 9:15 am
by Jonquil
And has a hood too..... what more could you want!

Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:38 am
by wulfenganck
@jonquil: wow, that looks great - but isn't it a bit to posh for a shoemakers wife?
I am not that much into english fashion, but I can only recall maybe three or four images of a woman wearing anything near to a Houppelande etc. which was fully buttoned down in the front - and those pictures were without exception showing upper class citizens or nobles.
Wear a gown instead, maybe gloves and a hood (although there is as well only scarce pictorial evidence for woman wearing hoods from around 1450 onwards). Again, I'm mainly referring to continental-european sources.
If its to cold, wear a gown lined with woolen fabric instead of linen as inner layer. Medieval clothing works like an onion: put a layer of clothing on and another and another and another.....

Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 12:40 pm
by Colin Middleton
Another thing to wear is a kercheif. A stip of fine linnen or silk about a meter by half a meter (is that right? is it 60cm by 30cm, I can never remember) worn under the gown and pinned in place. It's surprising how much that reduces the draft round the shoulders on a properly cut kirtle.

Definitely gowns are the way to go for warmth. Don't forget that men wear gowns too, just in a different shape. The coat is just a variant of the gown...

Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 1:02 pm
by Marcus Woodhouse
My wife who would feel cold in a desert moans about being too hot in her gown. Hoods are good as well.

Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:06 pm
by Karen Larsdatter
Tod wrote:What if it was raining?
Here's two pictures from the Tacuinum Sanitatis that show women shielding themselves from the rain & weather using their gowns: BNF Nouvelle acquisition latine 1673, fol. 95v and BNF Latin 9333, fol. 55.

Re: 15th C womens coat

Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 5:54 pm
by Jackie Phillips
Jonquil wrote:You could make one of these- does up all the way down the front so you could leave open if you wished.
It's a bit early for WoTR, I would suggest. The houppelande had all but disappeared by the 2nd quarter of the century as far as I can tell.

And I'd love to see pictorial evidence for the hood on it, because the garment is delightful with it.

Angie, I thought I got cold, particularly in the evenings, I don't think I've ever been cold in the daytime at Tewkes!


Jackie

Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 7:11 pm
by GOK
I'm with you Angie, on the chilly morsel front; I got cold on Venice Beach - California...in the middle of the summer! I do have to say however, that with proper underthings, plus overthings made of wool, I'm generally fine. It's all about the layers! Also, if you can keep your hands and tootsies warm, it helps.

Jonquil - that houppelande is gorgeous...I love the colour! :P

Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 10:10 pm
by Tod
To be fair its the evenings and if it is cold I'm thinking of. Angie's 18th century is spot on lots of layers and her cloak.
I've found a few pictures in some of my books so I'll try and remember to bring them to the ILHF. Next to buy even more wool, mind you we could try and reduce the mountain that we have. Is dark blue any problem?

Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:15 pm
by Angie
As Tod pointed out my 18th century kit has lots of layers and I still feel the cold.

Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:36 pm
by oakenshield
cant women wear a doublet type of thing over there kirtels ?

Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 5:10 pm
by Sophia
Doublet bodices and waistcoats are something that developed during the latter half of the C16th. I have not yet come across any references to such garments for C15th.

Indeed the date of introduction of these items into the dress of the common woman is a matter of great debate.

Soph :D

Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 6:09 pm
by Jackie Phillips
In the evening, I change back into civvies and wear long wool coat (man's gown but in my size) over the top, in the beer tent or round the campfire it hardly matters.

If you want to stay in kit, or if you get cold in the daytime when the wind gets up and it rains (and it has been known to at Tewkes), then we need to look at increasing your layers.

What do you wear on your feet, other than your shoes?

What have you got in the way of headwear?

Two places that if they get cold, then you'll feel cold - as my mother loved pointing out to me when as I child I complained of being cold when only wearing one pair of socks.

Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:52 pm
by Angie
Jackie, I usually wear sports socks and thickish stockings.

I tend to stay in kit after closing time and as I was always told that as you apparently lose heat through your head I have a varity or hats from modern to multi period to wear.

When I come to you at ILHF about the victorian corset (that Tod is paying for) can we discuss layers and have a look at what you have on your stall)?