Name this hat please

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gallois
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Postby gallois » Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:52 pm

If you refer to my first post to the question ' can anyone name this hat?' I was implying that the this type of hat was common ly worn by clerics, scrivers and teachers of the early medieval period, particularly here in France and in Italy. Being that the Order of St John, Templars and Hospitaliers were religious orders it is likely that many of them would have worn habit and had tonsures. The black cloak with cross of Malta was only worn by some of the order, others wore white cloaks with red crosses. Yes, the orders costumes did change over the centuries but in an order that kept meticulous records, albeit in secret, I am certain that they would have known what was worn by their predecessors.
The script at the bottom of the portraits does not exist on the original woodblocks so I assume that the artist commissioned to copy the block prints added it so that viewers would see immediately who the sitter was.
Another institution that has continuous pictoral record of the most important person in their society are the Holy See. With one or two exceptions they have portraits of the popes that go back to St Peter, probably a representation, not an actual sitting. Throughout the history of the church the portraits do show different modes of dress, hairstyles and painting styles but any artist commissioned to make a record of a pope would be given very little latitude for artistic licence. There was a danger that he would be guilty of blasphemy. My point is that in certain situations there is so much documentary evidence from the societies own records that making reasonably accurate portraits would be easy and obligatory to the commissionees, ie the Order of St John.
Between Fr Balben 1160/62 No 3. and Ermengard d'Asp 1188/90 No 10. there are 8 portraits of Grand Masters That could all have been made within the lifetime of 1 artist, 30 years, not impossible if the artist was a friar of the same order. Take a look at the gallery of Grand Master portraits here http://www.netpages.free-online.co.uk/gms/gm000.htm
To my mind they portray the sitter in attire conteporary with the period or earlier.You may notice that some are wearing Greek helmets! I dont think they were trying to imply they were around during the Greco/Roman period just that they looked good in it!! Ignore the frame texts as these are later additions.
Most of the originals of the portraits can be viewed at the museum of the Order of Malta, Compesièrs, Suisse. +41 - 79 - 202 55 64 if you would like to arrange a guided visit contact Haydn on +33 6 88 269 892


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Marcus Woodhouse
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Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Thu Apr 30, 2009 10:40 pm

No mention of hats being worn at all by the orders of the 12th century according to D Seward. That suggests that they wore hooded habits, white in the case of the Templars (who were influenced by the Cistercians), black for Hospitalliars (Benedictines) black with a green cross for the Order of St. Lazarus (Augustines) white with a back cross for the Order of Our Lady of Jerusalem.
I did look hard and the pictures seem to come from Dell, istiria della Sacre religione et Illma, Militia de San Giovanni Gierosolimitano which was produced in Rome in 1594.
The 15th century is my main interest for research so I'm not going to say that what can be found in either source is "the truth".


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narvek
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Postby narvek » Fri May 01, 2009 6:35 am

gallois: if all your support is: "I've read it once, I've seen it there" then it's pretty worthless theory.

In your last post, you collected quite interesting calls but there is no proof!

Would you probably tell us where did you find that members of the Orders knew what their predecesors (sp?) wear? Do you know who painted the pictures? Do you know when?

Or at least you could tell us what proof you have of early medieval scholars wearing such a hat.

:roll: :roll: :roll: If you want to research history, do it the way researchers do!


Edit: corrected some mistypes


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gregory23b
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Postby gregory23b » Sun May 03, 2009 8:48 pm

"To my mind they portray the sitter in attire conteporary with the period or earlier."

I random glance and I saw a 12th century guy wearing early 18thc armour, not armour congruous with the period they represent.

"Printed for G. Strahan, 2 Volumes, London, 1728."

http://www.netpages.free-online.co.uk/gms/gm010.htm

http://www.netpages.free-online.co.uk/gms/gm002.htm

http://www.netpages.free-online.co.uk/gms/gm012.htm

All not wearing armour for their periods


"You may notice that some are wearing Greek helmets!"

You mean this guy?

http://www.netpages.free-online.co.uk/gms/gm019.htm

wearing a morion type helmet (not my era so correct me as to the right term), not so much greek as a stylised helmet for a period before the engravings were made.

You cannot take those images at face value, they are 18thc interpreted engravings, if direct copies then the armour would not be as is portrayed.

Clothing styles must have changed, as evidenced by the very last few Grand Masters, they are all portrayed in clothing contemporaneous to the time of the painting.

Unless you are saying not to rely on that gallery, mm now I am confused.


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