Name this hat please

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Templar Knight
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Name this hat please

Postby Templar Knight » Fri Apr 24, 2009 7:28 pm

Can someone tell me what these hats are called and if any one makes them.
Thanks
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Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:19 pm

Well it certainly isn't 12th century-we need a tudor wallah in here.


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Postby Grymm » Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:21 pm

can't see any hat here, tried reloading 3 times.


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Postby Grymm » Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:24 pm

Fifth time lucky.
Looks like a 1930 idea of what a medieval hat was like. And as Fra Auger de Balben died 1163 doubt he ever dressed like that which is much more 1530s.

But as it looks a bit like a tudor cap and if you really want one like it go see Sally(wot posts on yur) or Kirsty Buckland.
Last edited by Grymm on Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.


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Postby Templar Knight » Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:27 pm

so it could be a modernish interpretation(sp) of the hats they may have worn. I have seen a lot of picturs of templars, hospitallers and other monastic warrior organisations with this hat on.
I am starting my templar soft stuff like the habitat and saw the hats in a lot of pictures so wanted one for my kit.


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Postby gallois » Fri Apr 24, 2009 10:17 pm

Hi Templar,
Its hard to see but if this hat has four corners it is similar to a priests 'Barrete' a fore-runner of the beret. Catholic priests wear a barrete with a pompom on but this is a later addition. See pic. Early medieval scholastic monks also wore the Barrete.
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Postby Templar Knight » Fri Apr 24, 2009 10:37 pm

thankyou very much :D


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Postby Grymm » Fri Apr 24, 2009 11:18 pm

Templar Knight wrote: I have seen a lot of picturs of templars, hospitallers and other monastic warrior organisations with this hat on.


any chance that you could post some up so's we can do a comparison with the first, might get a better idea of what it actually is.


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Postby Nigel » Sat Apr 25, 2009 7:20 am

for my 50 quid from the clothing stlye and colours it looks liek a 16th-17th cnetury portrait so the clothign would be of that period

I cannot think of anything like that worn in the 12th


There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

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Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Sat Apr 25, 2009 12:06 pm

Templar Knight, this is not a representaion of what a 12th/13th century Grand master looked like, it is a 15th or 16th century representation of what one looked like.
If you look at "historical" paintings by variuos artists until really the start of the last century you'll find little if any effort is made to make them "contemporay" to the time they are supposed to represent.
Thats why paintings like the Martyrdom of St. Urusala are so fantastic to those who re-enact late 15th century as everyone is dressed, armoured and armed as they were in the 1480's.
A late Roman re-enactor who used the same primary evidence would be dressed totally incorrectly though.


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Postby chrisanson » Sat Apr 25, 2009 3:42 pm

Name this hat please


how about Felicity?



Flesh&Blood

Postby Flesh&Blood » Sat Apr 25, 2009 5:12 pm

chrisanson wrote:
Name this hat please


how about Felicity?


Swine, you told me Chelsea!!!!



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Postby chrisanson » Sat Apr 25, 2009 5:36 pm

Flesh&Blood wrote:
chrisanson wrote:
Name this hat please


how about Felicity?


Swine, you told me Chelsea!!!!


i lied 8)



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Postby gallois » Sat Apr 25, 2009 6:08 pm

ERm....to get back on a serious track trying top help Templar.... :x fra Aug. Balben was a Grandmaster of the Order of St John, Hospital in Jerusalem, Acre and Malta.
There is a site dedicated to all the OSJ, which still exists, at www.orderstjohn.org lots of pics and infor there. If you are going to dress accurately this is a good place to start.


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Postby chrisanson » Sat Apr 25, 2009 6:14 pm

or Wilberforce, looks quit masculine to me



Flesh&Blood

Postby Flesh&Blood » Sat Apr 25, 2009 6:35 pm

chrisanson wrote:or Wilberforce, looks quit masculine to me


ohh stop it, you'll get us told off again :roll: cake



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Postby Jenn R » Sat Apr 25, 2009 6:43 pm

You two are just asking to have your legs slapped :lol:


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Postby Simon Atford » Sat Apr 25, 2009 6:57 pm

gallois wrote:Hi Templar,
Its hard to see but if this hat has four corners it is similar to a priests 'Barrete' a fore-runner of the beret. Catholic priests wear a barrete with a pompom on but this is a later addition. See pic. Early medieval scholastic monks also wore the Barrete.


Priests and monks wear the forerunner of berets :?: I never knew that.



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Postby Grymm » Sat Apr 25, 2009 7:07 pm

gallois wrote:ERm....to get back on a serious track trying top help Templar.... :x fra Aug. Balben was a Grandmaster of the Order of St John, Hospital in Jerusalem, Acre and Malta.
There is a site dedicated to all the OSJ, which still exists, at www.orderstjohn.org lots of pics and infor there. If you are going to dress accurately this is a good place to start.


That's where the image is from, and it ain't 12thC.


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Postby chrisanson » Sat Apr 25, 2009 7:15 pm

Jenn R wrote:You two are just asking to have your legs slapped :lol:


promises,promises :roll:



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Postby Colin Middleton » Mon Apr 27, 2009 12:41 pm

gallois wrote:Hi Templar,
Its hard to see but if this hat has four corners it is similar to a priests 'Barrete' a fore-runner of the beret. Catholic priests wear a barrete with a pompom on but this is a later addition. See pic. Early medieval scholastic monks also wore the Barrete.


Given that this guy is a monk (being a grand master), then it sounds like that might be your answer.


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Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Mon Apr 27, 2009 8:45 pm

May i recommend Monks of War which gives quite detailed accounts of the clothing and style of costume worn by the various fighting orders. I still think that this looks like it belongs in the 1570's rather than the 1170's but neither the Tudor period or the high middle ages are my thing. I'm quite happy to admit that i may be barking up the wrong tree.


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Postby gallois » Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:56 pm

Grymm wrote:
gallois wrote:ERm....to get back on a serious track trying top help Templar.... :x fra Aug. Balben was a Grandmaster of the Order of St John, Hospital in Jerusalem, Acre and Malta.
There is a site dedicated to all the OSJ, which still exists, at www.orderstjohn.org lots of pics and infor there. If you are going to dress accurately this is a good place to start.


That's where the image is from, and it ain't 12thC.


Fr Auger Balben was Grand master of the Order from 1159 to 1163. Im confused as to why anyone would paint his portrait centuries later? And if they did so why they would put him in dress of their period not his? What would be the point and who would have paid for the work.
Do you have empirical data to support your claim that this work post dates the sitter?


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And let the sky grow dark.

The nock to the cord, the shaft to the ear,

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Postby narvek » Tue Apr 28, 2009 4:24 pm

Gallois: try to read something about the work with historical paintings, will you?


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Postby lucy the tudor » Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:22 pm

Eric 8)


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Postby chrisanson » Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:34 pm

lucy the tudor wrote:Eric 8)


troll :wink:



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Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:55 pm

:shock: (Does he really not know!)


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Postby chrisanson » Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:03 pm

Marcus Woodhouse wrote::shock: (Does he really not know!)



what? that the hat is realy a pair of y-front in disguyse?



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Grymm
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Postby Grymm » Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:17 pm

gallois wrote:
Grymm wrote:
gallois wrote:ERm....to get back on a serious track trying top help Templar.... :x fra Aug. Balben was a Grandmaster of the Order of St John, Hospital in Jerusalem, Acre and Malta.
There is a site dedicated to all the OSJ, which still exists, at www.orderstjohn.org lots of pics and infor there. If you are going to dress accurately this is a good place to start.


That's where the image is from, and it ain't 12thC.


Fr Auger Balben was Grand master of the Order from 1159 to 1163. Im confused as to why anyone would paint his portrait centuries later? And if they did so why they would put him in dress of their period not his? What would be the point and who would have paid for the work.
Do you have empirical data to support your claim that this work post dates the sitter?


take a butcher's at the page
http://www.orderofmalta.org/site/granmaestri.asp?idlingua=5
Four portraits all supposidly from the 12thC now go find another portrait from the 12thC with half as much detail and that is ignoring the script, the dating style as well as the style of clothing.
Why would anyone have a display of the Kings of England from William I onwards their suits of armour and their muskets ? Yet it happened at the Tower of London..... if you go to this page http://www.smom-za.org/grandmasters/index.htm The same painter has done the first 14 Grand Masters, over 100yrs worth.














Oh and I asked the Order.


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Postby gallois » Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:46 pm

I see your point. You believe that the portraits are retrospective and have artistic licence because the artist had no knowledge of the original? In fact every Grandmaster of the Order of St John since Brother Gerard has been portrayed in woodblock engraving. The fact that a portrait of someone combines medieval armour with a musket doesnt imply that they were trying to mislead to an earlier period.No different to me sitting for a photo wearing flares while sitting in a Ford Mondeo!
By your earlier observation should we assume that the portraits of all the early popes are not actually who they purport to be?


"A long bow and a strong bow,

And let the sky grow dark.

The nock to the cord, the shaft to the ear,

And a foreign king for a mark!"


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