doublets

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aidanwallis
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doublets

Post by aidanwallis »

ok me and lidi have been talking about doublet after shara thursfeild told me that infact a doublet shouldent be made of wool :shock:

what to you think??
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Post by Sophia »

What kind of cloth did she recommend?

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Post by aidanwallis »

fustian with a linen lining
sophia same you couldent come to the class/.
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Post by gregory23b »

what kind of fustian?

wool blend fustian or cotton linen fustian?
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16th Century doublets

Post by Dathi »

I must admit I started digging thro inventories for the late 16th century and onwards as a result of poring over "Clothes of the Common Man" (or whatever it's called) and wool doublets were so infrequent as to be invisable. Linen canvas, sackcloth, fustian, leather, worsted, chamlet, silk, satin, and velvet were all mentioned.

The Paston letters do mention fustian, here http://www.larsdatter.com/paston.htm

I should qualify that...! Doh!

The heavier, warm wools such as rugg, frieze, broadcloth, and russet just don't appear as fabric used for making doublets. Worsted does appear.
Last edited by Dathi on Tue Mar 31, 2009 10:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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gregory23b
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Post by gregory23b »

Worsted is a wool weave.

The use of the word wool is infrequent (in relation to cloth), the names of the various cloths, kersey, worsted, russet etc.

one for a kersey doublet

(1445) Reg.Chanc.Oxf.in OHS 93 110: Pro corpore l duploidem de albo carissay.

worsted

(1465) Paston 1.140: I pray yow ye woll send me ... ij elne of worsted for doblettes, to happe me this cold wynter and that ye inquere where William Paston bought his tepet of fyne worsted whech is almost like silk ... for I wold make my doblet all worsted for worship of Norffolk.

velvet comes up a facing material for doublets as well as doublets for fence, yum.
middle english dictionary

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Hraefn
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Post by Hraefn »

Anyone make 'fustian' any more?
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John Waller
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Post by John Waller »

Hraefn wrote:Anyone make 'fustian' any more?
Yes

http://www.stuart-hmaltd.com/historical_fabrics.php
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Post by Hraefn »

Anyone else?
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Post by Dathi »

Hraefn wrote:Anyone else?
Off the top of my head...Nope.....I think one of the various State side sources "may" do fustian but don't quote me on this!

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Post by Sophia »

Ruth Goodmn can get it from Egypt but would have to be a special order and is pricey.

I have found linen/cotton canvas that is genuinely linen one way and cotton the other, only in half basket or basket weave (that is 1:2 or 2:2 tabby for those that don't know).

I have also found, in the past, odd remnants of wool/cotton suiting with a slightly raised corded nap. Ninya has looked at this and said it would pass for Holmes/Ulm fustian. She has not found anything like a Naples or Milan fustian and recommends pure cotton moleskin as a substitute.

Stuart Peachey's fustian is more of a "soft jean fustian" and I would only use it for linings.

William Booth Draper in the US stock a hemp/cotton striped canvas, a hemp/cotton diaper, a linen/wool linsey/woolsey and a wool/cotton Jean cloth. They are supplying re-enactors for C18th but these most of these cloths were around much earlier.

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Re: 16th Century doublets

Post by Karen Larsdatter »

Dathi wrote:The Paston letters do mention fustian, here http://www.larsdatter.com/paston.htm
They also mention
  • ij elne of worsted for doblettes to happe me this cold wynter
  • I wold make my doblet all worsted for worship of Norffolk rather thanne like Gonnores doblet
  • a dobelet of blak satyn
  • a dobelet of blak fusteyn
  • a dowbelett of blake sateyn
  • I pray 3ow þat þe weluet þat levyt of my typet may be send hom a-geyn, fore I woold strype a dobelet there-wyth
  • I praye yow sende me a newe vestment off whyght damaske fore a dekyn, whyche is among myn other geer at Norwyche, for he shall ther-too as ye woot off. I wyll make an armyng doblett off it
  • dowbelet of fustian
  • a dowblet of fostian
  • the doblet of porpyll sateyn and the doblet of blak sateyn
  • a doblett clothe off sylke
  • a dublett clothe of grene saten of Cypres

So ... I'm seeing at least 2 worsted, 4 satin, 3 fustian, 1 striped with velvet, 1 damask, and 1 silk.

Not exactly compelling evidence for no wool doublets. (But I suppose it also raises the question of what period was under discussion, and the function of the doublets -- an arming doublet requiring a different fabric from a dress doublet, etc.)

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Post by Dathi »

Sophia wrote:Ruth Goodmn can get it from Egypt but would have to be a special order and is pricey.

I have found linen/cotton canvas that is genuinely linen one way and cotton the other, only in half basket or basket weave (that is 1:2 or 2:2 tabby for those that don't know).

I have also found, in the past, odd remnants of wool/cotton suiting with a slightly raised corded nap. Ninya has looked at this and said it would pass for Holmes/Ulm fustian. She has not found anything like a Naples or Milan fustian and recommends pure cotton moleskin as a substitute.

Stuart Peachey's fustian is more of a "soft jean fustian" and I would only use it for linings.

William Booth Draper in the US stock a hemp/cotton striped canvas, a hemp/cotton diaper, a linen/wool linsey/woolsey and a wool/cotton Jean cloth. They are supplying re-enactors for C18th but these most of these cloths were around much earlier.
Sophia :D
Woulkd the William Booth fabrics be fine for mid 17th Century? [/b]

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Post by Colin Middleton »

Last time Sarah talked to us about doublets she was recomending cotton moleskin (she almost did a little dance when I showed her the stuff my wife had found :) ). She did mention that Worsted was used, but linnen was better (or cotton moleskin/fustian if you can find it).

The problem is if you say that wool was used for doublets, suddenly everyone's quoting you to justify coat weight wool doublets and complaining that they're too hot!
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Post by gregory23b »

"The problem is if you say that wool was used for doublets, suddenly everyone's quoting you to justify coat weight wool doublets and complaining that they're too hot!"

That is because most people are under the misapprehension that the only wool cloth was coat weight, an issue of ignorance and accepted reenactment lore really, I suspect it is to do with the rustic-tinted glasses that the medieval period tends to give us, everything was horrible and rough.

As far as I can remember, most of us doing wotr wear some sort of wool doublet.
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Post by Colin Middleton »

I thought that it's because people only think of wool as blankets and knitting and the little wool that they do find is heavy and scratchy.

After all, who still buys woolen suits or socks, even less the many other uses that wool has been put to in the past.
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Post by X »

I think it's a clothing-historian type thing.

quoting from the 'Medieval Tailor's Assistant':

"Woollen cloth - any woollen cloth or blend with a visible weave, tabby or twill, and a more or less hairy surface. The threads should be well packed together, though cloth intended for lining can be flimsier. A density of 6-15 threads per cm is typical for a working garment: a higher density is for finer garments. Use the coarser cloth for cotes and surcotes, for cheaper garments of any period, and for linings. Fine quality twill cloth is best for hose, and thick, hairy cloth makes warm cloaks.

Broadcloth - this is likely to be pure wool, and more expensive. here the weave structure is not visible and the surface is either smooth and felt-like (Melton type) or with a fine velvety pile (faced cloth). Use broadcloth for good quality outer garments of the 14th and 15th centuries, and especially for 15th-century gowns. Heavy Melton makes excellent cloaks.

Worsted - a lightyer, smoother fabric made with combed yarn, often blended with polyester. Worsteds may come in tabby or twill weave or even with a satin finish: use them for better quality cotes, doublets and kirtles, and lightweight gowns for warm weather."


So... all these are made out of the fluffy stuff that grows on sheep, but only the first one (clearly unsuitable for doublets) is referred to as 'woollen cloth'.

The joy of semantics...

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Post by Hraefn »

"shara thursfeild told me that infact a doublet shouldent be made of wool "
"she was recomending cotton moleskin"

!?

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Post by X »

Cotton moleskin as a viable re-enactment alternative to the real thing.

Sarah may be a clothing historian, but she's also a re-enactor and knows that some of us can't afford to have the A1 authentic thing (whatever it is), or sometimes the A1 authentic thing is just not available. So you need an alternative that is both available and in re-enactor-price-range.

Sometimes it's better to have something that wasn't around in the historical period of choice, but looks like what was in use at the time, rather than choose something that was around (such as thick woollen fabric) but wasn't used for what you are intending it for.

Think about it: is it better to use cotton moleskin which looks OK up to a distance of about 10cm, and at least hangs right, than to use an unsuitable (but available-in-period) fabric that makes the whole garment look wrong at a distance of yards?

I suppose the decision-making process goes:

1. Is the 'real thing' available?
2. Is the 'real thing' affordable?
If the answers to 1 & 2 are both yes, then use it. Stop here.

If the answer to 1 is yes, but 2 is no, then:
3. Can you realistically save up for the 'real thing'?
If the answer to 3 is yes, then save up. Stop here.

If the answer to 3 is no:
4. Is there a non-authentic alternative to the 'real thing' which looks and acts like the 'real thing' to all but the closest inspection?
If the answer to 4 is yes, then use it. Stop here.

If the answer to 4 is no:
5. Consider wider options: is there an item of kit that does the same job but is easier to reproduce? If yes, return to '1' for the other item of kit.

If the answer to 5 is no:
6. Can you do without? If yes, do without.

If the answer to 6 is no:
7. Sit down and cry.

There are probably variations, but I reckon for most of us, that's how it goes. And the more you know about the intricacies of a subject, the more you are faced with the prospect of having to decide between something that was around in period but not used for what you are planning, and something that wasn't around but looks better.

In the old days, when the epitome of authenticity in fabric choice was pure linen/pure wool (if it's linen or wool it's OK) life was easy. When you get into the murky realms of weaves and weights, you suddenly have to start making more difficult decisions.

At bottom, I suppose it all comes down to what we are doing re-enactment for. If we are doing it to provide the appearance of a historical period, then our guiding principle should be that our kit should look right. That way, the public goes away with the correct image. If someone chooses to examine our kit with a magnifying glass, then we can explain why we have made the compromises that we have (cotton moleskin, high-quality fake fur instead of real, modern welds on firetrays, and don't get me started on pasting tables...).

The key is that for the maximum level of authenticity, you have to start from Question 1 in every case: use the real thing if you can. Only if you can't, do you start looking for alternatives.

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Post by guthrie »

Well ok you lot, what should a 1535 mens doublet be made from then?

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Post by myladyswardrobe »

guthrie wrote:Well ok you lot, what should a 1535 mens doublet be made from then?
Fustian would be good but we know that wool was also used. For Kentwell purposes - use a good wool.

As an alchemist you are not poor - may be not hugely wealthy but you can certainly afford good clothing made from good quality wool. And it would be made for you.

Feel free to contact if you need any help/advice on costume for KW.

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Post by Sophia »

Guthrie,

Agree with Bess here - doublet can be worsted or a very high end tabby weave. A good suiting with an interlining or one of Bernie's better wools.

The lighter you make your doublet, the more comfortable you will be wearing your Jerkin/Coat over it.

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Post by guthrie »

Thanks, but I'm still getting my head around things - so you would be expected to wear a jerkin over your doublet? Even when working?

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Post by Sophia »

The answer is yes if it is cold or wet - you would also put it on to look smart. The skirted jerkin in The Tudor Tailor is the C16th equivalent of the gown for C15th.

Hope this helps.

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Post by guthrie »

Change the above to foundry work not alchemy - in which case I think I need a doublet, a jerkin and I have some blue hose which may be fixable up. So looking at the tudor tailor again, how about a russet jerkin with cloth buttons over a doublet made of linen? If I can get some of the right sort of linen of course.

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Post by Sophia »

I have found what is effectively a Fustian on eBay.

My only reservation for the foundry is that you will be working near a fire and both linen and cotton are considerably more flammable than wool.

My best suggestion now that you have your acceptance is to get set up on the Kentwellies site and post a question FAO forge and foundry past parts as they will be able to make recommendations.

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Post by Dathi »

guthrie wrote:Thanks, but I'm still getting my head around things - so you would be expected to wear a jerkin over your doublet? Even when working?

Yes. It's either to keep you warm, or protect the doublet, and you, from damage.

I'd suspect frieze or leather rather than russet. Russet is a lighter fabric than frieze and I'm not sure I can recall seeing russet jerkins in probates, leather and frieze yes. I think I've seen a lot of breeches in russet, as being a lighter wool it's not quite so warm in what summer weather they have then!

If you're feeling lazy there is a good guide to fabrics in the Tudor Tailor.

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Post by gregory23b »

"Change the above to foundry work not alchemy - in which case I think I need a doublet, a jerkin and I have some blue hose which may be fixable up. So looking at the tudor tailor again, how about a russet jerkin with cloth buttons over a doublet made of linen? If I can get some of the right sort of linen of course."

And a leather coat or jerkin, or apron.
middle english dictionary

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