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Transitional hoods.

Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 12:28 am
by lidimy
For my new Tudor outfit I'd like to try something a little different for headware. A transitional hood a la Cecily Heron (piccy attached.)

Has anyone got...

-piccies of re-enactors' attempts.
-piccies of other portraits showing the same style
-an idea about how to go about making one? The layers seem a bit complicated, and it's hard to tell from the piccy which bits might be part of a shaped coif, or a brim, or an edge for billiments, or whether it might be of the same fabric as the gown, etc....

Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 12:32 am
by lidimy
And the big piccy:


any help, as ever, gratefully received :D

Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 8:39 pm
by lidimy
Awkwardly, the trailer for 'The Other Boleyn Girl' has some nice examples :shock: :lol:

Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:42 pm
by frances
Lidi,

Have a look at my website, in the 'how to' section, on the left-hand side.

http://www.createthemood.uklinux.net

I am updating the site, but having trouble getting the updated stuff online. However this section will tell you all you need for posh-going-out-style headwear.

Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:25 pm
by lidimy
OK... so you'd attack it from a gable hood stance rather than a French Hood?

Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:02 am
by frances
Whether you have it curved or gable at the front is up to you. But the principle is the same. You can make a soft one - but will have to pin it on somehow, and every one I have ever seen made soft comes off or goes lop-sided in wear over a day.

You can make one out of cardboard - but the first time it gets damp it will go mouldy, and if you sit on it or fall over in it, it will break. Or you can make a substantial structure from buckram and wire to hold it all up. These last for years and can be modified later. It is up to you. I can only say what I did.

Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 3:37 pm
by lidimy
Coolios, well I was going to make it from wire anyway... I was more looking at how you made the back, as the gable is quite rigid, and from what I can see the transitional type hood is more like the French hood at the back.

If it doesn't go to plan I'll try the new French hood pattern I've been given, so I'm not too concerned (:

Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:29 am
by frances
Whatever shape the front is, the back is made of fabric.

You usually have a white cap to cover your hair, and the black fabric (not velvet, that is too heavy) at the back, whatever shape you cut and fold it into, covers everything up.

Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:52 am
by Izabela Pitcher
just curious: why not velvet? silk velvet is not very heavy and it works as well as other type of silk, well, at least on the gable and french hoods I had in the past... any particular problems you've had with it? making a new one now so want to explore all avenues before I cut the thing:-)

Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 12:02 pm
by Shadowcat
I used cotton velvet for the gable headdress I made for the Museum of London - no problems with that. I personally don't like the silk/rayon velvets that are sold as silk - they are too soft for my liking.

S.

Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 12:28 pm
by Izabela Pitcher
I also do not like the blends- I only ever use 100% silk - the difference in price is not that great and the effect is well worth it.

Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:16 pm
by Shadowcat
Where on earth do you get 100% silk - the only one I've come across recently was white, and I am not prepared to dye fabric in my new washing machine - I killed the last one! (Literally - it shook itself to pieces!)

S.

Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:22 pm
by Izabela Pitcher
www.silkbaron.com - fantasic silk velvets and taffetas, I placed the link in the links section earlier on

You can get nice one from china occasionally - my kung fu has a double edge to it- martial arts and getting silk from Hong Kong!

Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:41 pm
by lidimy
Izabela Zebrowska wrote:just curious: why not velvet? silk velvet is not very heavy and it works as well as other type of silk, well, at least on the gable and french hoods I had in the past... any particular problems you've had with it? making a new one now so want to explore all avenues before I cut the thing:-)


*grin* is that Vicky's one you're making now?
I feel a bit envious now, gables are so dour in comparison... boo. I really do need to make a nifty transitional type, 'cos I don't want my head to look like a roof!

Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:47 pm
by Izabela Pitcher
actually, am making my own: both gable and French:-)
And I do not think gable hoods are boring- I find them great fun both to make and to wear!

Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:52 pm
by lidimy
Coool, you'll have to put up piccies once they're done! I have great admiration for people who can pull of gables (not literally pull off... you know what I mean).

Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:01 pm
by Shadowcat
Izabela Zebrowska wrote:www.silkbaron.com - fantasic silk velvets and taffetas, I placed the link in the links section earlier on

You can get nice one from china occasionally - my kung fu has a double edge to it- martial arts and getting silk from Hong Kong!


I resent paying the import duty on anything from the U.S., which is why I avoid buying there - you can get clobbered for huge amounts! I find the price exceptionally low for silk velvet - when in Italy in November the prices were nearly 10 times higher.

S

Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:00 pm
by frances
A lot of the velvet I use is cotton furnishing velvet, and it is rather heavy. I found that the weight of the veil pulled the hood off my head and was uncomfortably heavy by the end of a day. So now I only use a light-weight black fabric.

Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 2:44 pm
by myladyswardrobe
Izabela Zebrowska wrote:
www.silkbaron.com - fantasic silk velvets and taffetas, I placed the link in the links section earlier on

You can get nice one from china occasionally - my kung fu has a double edge to it- martial arts and getting silk from Hong Kong!


Silk Baron's velvet isn't 100% silk velvet. I know, 'cos I checked with him. I asked him whether it was genuinely 100% silk (ground and pile) and he confirmed it wasn't. The ground is rayon (if I remember rightly) and the pile is silk. I think its an 80/20 split. Better than most blends though!

Its nice stuff (says Bess as she thinks fondly of her ten yards of blood red velvet sitting in the wardrobe which is earmarked for 2 costumes)

I have a roll of 100% silk velvet (ground AND pile) and though Silk Baron's is similar it is not the same thing. Its 21" wide and 14 yards long and was made in the 1920s.

Bess.

Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:18 pm
by Izabela Pitcher
oh dear - well, they do advertise as 100% and I asked about mine via ebay, and was assured it is 100%. mind you, the one I got from them is identical to genuine 100% black velvet ( like yours, from the 1920-30). havig said that, I got some of their samples and although my colour,crimson,black and a few others are identical with the genuine one, the other 3 colours look slightly different. perhaps you need to ask separately about each colour?
interesting , will investigate further and report my findings!

Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:07 pm
by Shadowcat
A friend of mine in the U.S. has just spoken today with the Silk Baron, and has confirmed that it is not 100% silk . She says silk pile, rayon ground, but my sources in London insist theirs is silk ground, rayon pile - still neither is 100% silk, as I thought. Only very expensive , and from Italy, to the best of my knowledge.

S.

Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 7:59 pm
by frances
I've got a piece of 1920's silk velvet up for sale - but not suitable for hoods as it is devore silk velvet and has roses printed all over it!

Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:47 pm
by myladyswardrobe
Izabela Zebrowska wrote:oh dear - well, they do advertise as 100% and I asked about mine via ebay, and was assured it is 100%. mind you, the one I got from them is identical to genuine 100% black velvet ( like yours, from the 1920-30). havig said that, I got some of their samples and although my colour,crimson,black and a few others are identical with the genuine one, the other 3 colours look slightly different. perhaps you need to ask separately about each colour?
interesting , will investigate further and report my findings!


No - I don't think so. I actually had email correspondence with Andrew and he confirmed none of it was 100% silk - pile and ground. All the colours were a mix.

The ground is certainly rayon - it has that kind of feel. I wouldn't be surprised if the pile is a bit more of a mix but there is silk in the pile.

To be absolutely frank and to echo Shadowcat, pure 100% silk velvet suitable for costuming is astronomically expensive and very difficult to find, unless, like me, you are lucky enough to find 1920s velvet. And even then, that velvet is in one colour (a nice terracotta - perfect for a late Elizabethan loosegown! - One day, when I get time!).

I do get fed up with fabrics being advertised as 100% wool or 100% silk when it obviously isn't.

I also get really annoyed when fabric is advertised as 100% Satin! As if that was a fibre!! Grrrr!

Good luck with your Tudor gown. I've seen the pictures of your kirtle. Very pretty.

All the best

Bess.

Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:38 pm
by red razors
oh, i always liked those hoods! that whole mid-1520s look is just gorgeous.
this is a nicer image; in colour, and you can see a little more detail than in the photocopied one.
http://www.tate.org.uk/britain/exhibitions/holbein/images/works/holbein_cecilyheron.jpg

Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:55 pm
by lidimy
Oooh thanks - *saves picture*

Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 7:26 pm
by Shadowcat

Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 7:32 pm
by lidimy
Thanks - I was using this as well -

http://www.modehistorique.com/elizabethan/coif.html

Though there's a better updated version too with downloadable patterns =D

Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 8:09 pm
by Shadowcat
Won't show up for me.

S.

Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:10 pm
by myladyswardrobe
lidimy wrote:Thanks - I was using this as well -

http://www.modehistorique.com/elizabethan/coif.html

Though there's a better updated version too with downloadable patterns =D


This one is really good!

And she has added a newer version of her research:
http://modehistorique.com/elizabethan/french_hood/french_hoods.html

Bess.

Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:19 pm
by lidimy
That's the one - thanks Bess!

(I umm accidently just spent half an hour looking through the rest of her projects. Doesn't time fly? :") )

But that's the pattern I'll be using for when I re-do my hood. She makes a convincing argument for that construction!