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Dupion?

Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:08 pm
by lidimy
Nice material and all, drool worthy and plain..... luscious (umm yeh whatever)

but correct for 16thC? Please help before I pour money down the plug hole (never much fun.)


Thank yooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo :D :D :D :D :D

Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:23 pm
by xVickyx
And, coincidentally, before I pour money down the plughole too :P

Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:24 pm
by Merlon.
No evidence before 1820, sorry

Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:25 pm
by xVickyx
*consoles Lidi* :P

Thanks!

Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:46 pm
by Shadowcat
There is evidence for slub silk in the 16th century, but it is not the same as modern dupion, apparently. Do you want me to check on the source?

S.

Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:04 pm
by lidimy
*lovesick sigh*

Very well then. Adieu, sexy dark green :cry:

Shadowcat, I would certainly be interested in what a 16thC slub silk might be though... are there any close comparisons with any existing silk varieties today?

Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:10 pm
by Shadowcat
Not that I know of. Someone in the U.S. has done some interesting research, but it's a long while since I read it. When I was very young there was a fabric called shntung, which I think I remember having slubs, but it wasn't then called dupion. I think it's to do with the process - dupion is produced using the silk from twin cocoons, - try looking up "sericulture" and see if it tells you anything .
S

Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:29 pm
by narvek
Shadowcat wrote:Not that I know of. Someone in the U.S. has done some interesting research, but it's a long while since I read it. When I was very young there was a fabric called shntung, which I think I remember having slubs, but it wasn't then called dupion. I think it's to do with the process - dupion is produced using the silk from twin cocoons, - try looking up "sericulture" and see if it tells you anything .
S


shantung is still around,it's a silk fabric with structure similar to a linen..
one girl from here imports it from china

Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:37 pm
by Merlon.
Shantung Silk dates from the 1880s

Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:38 pm
by Theotherone
OK these are curtains, but it shows the texture
http://www.zarahome.com/shop/gb/en/zara ... /-1/52761/
(I've got flu and a headache)

Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:40 pm
by Sophia
You can still get Shantung from specialist silk merchants, it is at least about 1/3 more expensive than the very best dupion. (Lidi - The red silk for the wedding bear's underdress is shantung from Henry Bertrand).

The only places I could think of too look are The Silk Society shop on Berwick Street or one of the other cloth shops on the same street.

Soph :D

Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:41 pm
by lidimy
Yeh... well I was looking on here...

http://www.silkbaron.com/silk/color.aspx?collectionid=3


Slubby is out, right...?



(Zara = good taste! :wink: :lol: )

Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:44 pm
by Sophia
Your best bet is simply to bite the bullet and buy Taffeta - it will not be cheap but in the long run it will be a better bet.

Also, if you are planning to buy from the US be aware that you can get hit for VAT and other taxes - your maximum tax free import value is goods to the value of US$36.

Personally, I would go for a fine wool or if you can source it a chamlet (wool and silk mix).

Soph :D

Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:44 pm
by lidimy
Sophia wrote:You can still get Shantung from specialist silk merchants, it is at least about 1/3 more expensive than the very best dupion. (Lidi - The red silk for the wedding bear's underdress is shantung from Henry Bertrand).

The only places I could think of too look are The Silk Society shop on Berwick Street or one of the other cloth shops on the same street.

Soph :D



Oooo well for that kind of cost I think I'll stick with good old taffeta (hopefully before it turns out to be wrong :o )

Thanks for the guidance though Sophia - I had wondered what 'the red stuff' was (tis very nice anyway, but I expect you already know that! :lol: )

Vicky and I were going to inspect Chatelaine & some place in Suffolk before venturing out into London though.

Fine wool can almost run up the same costs as silk though sometimes can't it?

Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:46 pm
by Shadowcat
Lidi

Do not buy silk taffeta in shops in London - they charge anything up to 100% more than the wholesalers do for the same thing. If you find something you like, get a sample, then e-mail or PM me. If you get it in Shepherds Bush shops, and you cannot test it, it may not be 100% silk either. Chatelaine do a markup but it's a fair one.


s.

Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 12:16 am
by seamsmistress
Hi Lidi

You could also look for 'powerwoven' or 'Royal' duppions. These are of a higher quality than your everyday slubby dupions - some of them with barely any discernable [sp?] slub at all, so they look more like taffeta although they tend to lack the same amount of body.

Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 2:55 am
by Tuppence
Avoid all dupions at all cost for anything pre 19th century unless accuracy isn't an issue!!!!!*

As sc says, e-mail me too - we probably use the same suppliers for lots of stuff, but between us we'll almost certainly be able to get whatever you find cheaper than a london shop.




*and yes, I know I use dupion for surcotes unless specifically told not to, but that's cos satin snags like hell on mail, and tafetta has the splitting along crease lines issue..... :(

Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 9:38 am
by lidimy
My conscience nags if I have something I know is wrong...

Thanks for all the help. If my search leads to me to London I'll let you know! (hopefully not though - train fares would almost double the cost of the fabric straight away :roll: )

Annoyingly, I've actually found two silk places in Sudbury (Vicky!!!?)

Has anyone used any of these places?

http://www.stephenwalters.co.uk/

http://www.gainsborough.co.uk/index.php

Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 9:50 am
by lidimy
Ooooo....

http://www.gainsborough.co.uk/pswatch.php?id=25&date=19

striped taffeta.... under 19thC but a possible for late 18th? Maybe perhaps?

No prices though. How frustrating :?

Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 10:13 am
by Sophia
lidimy wrote:My conscience nags if I have something I know is wrong...

Thanks for all the help. If my search leads to me to London I'll let you know! (hopefully not though - train fares would almost double the cost of the fabric straight away :roll: )

Annoyingly, I've actually found two silk places in Sudbury (Vicky!!!?)

Has anyone used any of these places?

http://www.stephenwalters.co.uk/

http://www.gainsborough.co.uk/index.php


Used Stephen Walters - mainly for remnants, got a good sized taffeta remnant, also some fine grossgrain/corded silk. Beware their patterns as many of them are C18th or later. Also try and go on a sunny day and ask if you can look at the fabric in daylight as some of their silks develop an aura in strong sunlight due to the dye type (certain chemical dyes are UV reactive - a friend of mine has a splendid Burgundian gown she made, complete with fur trim, etc. but I can't bear to see it in sunlight as it has a bluish aura from one of the colours).

They are used as a source by Chatelaine - so if you find a pattern you like at Chatelaine it might be worth checking with Walters to see if they are cheaper.

On the Taffeta front - do take up either Shadowcat or Tuppence's offer as the price differences are shocking.

Soph :D

Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 11:18 am
by lidimy
I'll try and be scrupulous about patterns.... by and large, later patterns tend to be more floral and swirly don't they? If in doubt I'd rather leave it or take a sample and check with someone else. Thanks for the tip on the auras.... sounds nasty!


Do any of the London shops have websites?

Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 12:30 pm
by Sophia
Apart from Maccullochs where you will pay top whack the answer is sadly no. The silk shops on Berwick Street tend to be on the pricey side for stock but you never know what they might have reduced.

As for the Goldhawk Road shops it is a case of wandering along and seeing what they have in stock as this is very variable. Occasionally you can get good bargains on stuff. I find them very competitive for linen and for fine worsteds, i.e. around the £10-£15 per metre for worsteds. I managed to pick up an excellent dark brown wool/silk worsted which will pass for Chamlet in Classic Textiles last time I went as well as a couple of other useful things like nun's veiling weight undyed wool for lining fine worsteds.

If you simply want a plain taffeta then Shadowcat or Tuppence are your best bet.

Soph :D

Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 12:47 pm
by lidimy
Coolios, and I'm glad you said that as I was just on the Macculloch website and baulked a bit at some of the prices (drooled everywhere too but that's beside the point)


I'll see what I can find. I just despair at the thought of coming home empty handed!

Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 5:57 pm
by xVickyx
Sophia wrote:They are used as a source by Chatelaine - so if you find a pattern you like at Chatelaine it might be worth checking with Walters to see if they are cheaper.


Well that's good news isn't it Lidi? At least we know it won't be an entirely wasted journey on Friday :P And I very much doubt you'll be coming home empty handed, lol. Too much temptation!

This whole Tudor thing is getting very confusing though!

Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 6:39 pm
by lidimy
Yeppo - tis good indeed! Going right back to the source :P


Probably get there and find out it's some great, chundering old workhouse with steam billowing out the chimneys and silk in huuuuge bales waiting to be sent to various corners of the world, towering storeys high above our heads...


=D

Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 6:40 pm
by xVickyx
lidimy wrote:Yeppo - tis good indeed! Going right back to the source :P


Probably get there and find out it's some great, chundering old workhouse with steam billowing out the chimneys and silk in huuuuge bales waiting to be sent to various corners of the world, towering storeys high above our heads...


=D



That would be so cool! But devastating for our bank accounts :P

Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 6:43 pm
by lidimy
Oh well you see, I forgot to mention the bit where the owner of the mill is so disarmed by our natural charms and good looks that he sends us home with arms full of whatever silks we can cram into them!

Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 6:44 pm
by xVickyx
lidimy wrote:Oh well you see, I forgot to mention the bit where the owner of the mill is so disarmed by our natural charms and good looks that he sends us home with arms full of whatever silks we can cram into them!


Hehehe, ah yes I forgot about that bit :P

Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:25 pm
by Alice the Huswyf
The other thing to bear in mind is that 'modern' silk is weighted with metallic salts to give it body. This way they mimic more expensive, fibre intensive silk cloths. These salts also rot the cloth and lead to shattering - hence extant silk middle class dresses of the 1860's damage so easily, whereas earlier dresses or higher status dresses have survived intact.

I did hear some time ago that the silk you should be looking for for C15th or earlier would be a silk noile. This is a draping, matte silk which has occasional slender slubs as an imperfection, rather than the slubs being the featured texture in dupion (a cheap silk made fashionable becuase of the variable quality texture). Washed a dupion and it loses most of it's handle - becuase the weighting salts are gone. Mind you, this gives it flow, which I rather like with it's tatty image - especialy the cheap dupioni.

Now taffetta - mmmmmmmmmmmm.

Grosgrain - double mmmmmmmmmmm

--------------------------

While we are at it, has anyone a date for the first common use of moire or watered silks?

Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:36 pm
by Sophia
Useful point there Alys - though I am not sure about silk noil. Personally I would still go down the taffetta route. Alternatively Shantung (which simply describes a weave imported from a certain source in China - given the trade routes of the C16th the fabric names would not be the same). Alternatively there is Pongee, which is another weight of silk which can be used for linings, bodices and facings.

Personally I would make my first Tudor outfit from wool as this is more versatile and also more durable.

Soph :D