Dupion?

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Alice the Huswyf
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Postby Alice the Huswyf » Sat Jan 10, 2009 10:26 am

I wouldn't know about the habits of feeeelthy Tudahs!

Silk noile for C15th and before. I have an old RSC garment made in a pure silk noile type and it is washable and drapey and desirable (and far too high status for converting to my use). As you say, noile hasn't the crispness or stand for later wide skirts but oooooooh for a queenie shift or shirt one could force oneself.


Mind you, didn't someone on this forum cite that Lizzie had a cotton undershirt that was an unusual and noted possesion in her wardrobe? How times change!



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Postby Tuppence » Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:26 pm

matka if you can get it is lovely, and period correct (probably not by that name, but has been around since at lease the 12c).

lovely soft twill silk.

tussah (aka wild silk) is also lovely.


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lidimy
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Postby lidimy » Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:23 pm

Oooh, all a bit jargony now! :oops:

Alice, is the the noile silk the same as raw silk...?

Aaaanyway, Friday was tres successful, went to Gainsborough which we were to common for :twisted: :lol: :lol: :lol: but the other place had a sale so we picked up some nice bargains didn't we Vicky xD

Very nice actually xD went home with a blossoming image of my new (read: replacement) 1530s Tudor. Pinkie is going into retirement after a short, but useful and fulfilling life.

And got a good few samples for 18thC. I was truly torn; the striped were nothing to write home about, which made me a bit miserable, so in the end I thought ho hum, just go for what you like (for goodness sake) and be happy. So i got a sample of the most beautiful sunny coloured silk with a little passable 18thC flower pattern on. Hopefully it'll pass the Chipperfield test....

The plain taffetas were predictable expensive though, and there wasn't the *best* colour range so I didn't actually get any samples, methinks I'll give it a miss.

Oh and.... the sale is on til the end of Jan so seriously, for some superb bargains go there sooooon :o :o :o :o :o


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SyRilla
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Postby SyRilla » Tue Jan 13, 2009 5:30 am

Now that the topic of grosgrain silk has arisen, does anyone know when it first was used? I have 5meters of some and would to make a gown out of it. Now to find what time period.



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Merlon.
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Postby Merlon. » Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:01 am

The major problem is, as always, is what we have now what they had then?.....They did not even know themselves at the time

From: 'Queen Elizabeth - Volume 284: May 1602', Calendar of State Papers Domestic: Elizabeth, 1601-3:
May 10. Sec. Cecil to Thos. Windebank. I have forborne this half year to trouble Her Majesty or myself with any alteration of my farm of some of her silks, because I thought such a trifle would not have disturbed my deputies so much; but they continually devise new names for the same stuffs, and so the merchants one day call taffeta grosgrain; and grosgrain taffeta. My Lord Treasurer caused a book to be drawn wherein the words are explained, and yet because the grosgrains yield a custom, I am enjoined to pay it too. Pray read the book and docquet, and then you may see that Her Majesty's officers know it fit to make no difference of persons. The conditions are, the rent is increased 100l. a year almost for this explanation, the patent is forfeited for non-payment, and must not pass seal till security be given for the rent, for fast bind and fast find.

In a modern context grosgrain did not exist as a defined fabric before 1869



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Postby seamsmistress » Tue Jan 13, 2009 3:13 pm

Now that the topic of grosgrain silk has arisen, does anyone know when it first was used? I have 5meters of some and would to make a gown out of it. Now to find what time period.


From Queen Elizabeth's Wardrobe Unlock'd. Index II.

'GROSGRAIN, GROGRAINE, GROGRANE 'the newe stuffe called Grogryn ys all one with the stfuffe heretofore called chamlett' [PRO, Exchequer Bills and Answers, Norfolk, 44, Elizabeth, Mich. 1, testimony Delves v Norwich]. Textiles of taffetta, or plain, weave, with heavier threads nthe weft than the warp ['gros grains'], giving a ribbed or corded effect. Made from silk, goat's hair, and worsted, sometimes mixed fibres: Cloake of aishcolour grograine, S,f.70v/83; Cloake and saufegarde of Isabella colour grosgraine cut, S,f.74/30; Carnation grograine,S,f.88v/[17]; Crimsen gorgraine,S,f.88v/[88]'

This does seem to suggest that it was around and recognised for what it was in 1600 [when the Stowe inventory was written]

Might be worth checking through Henry VIII wardrobe accounts to see if mention is made there - could help to bracket the date?



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SyRilla
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Postby SyRilla » Tue Jan 13, 2009 3:36 pm

Some how I had missed that statement, seamsmistress. I will looking into HRM Henry's accounts also, just to see if it is mentioned. Thank you both. I have been running into the issue of the name changing and it had hit the wall on the research.



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SyRilla
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Postby SyRilla » Tue Jan 13, 2009 3:47 pm

"Camlet appears in the West in the 14th century, and from the beginning its name is associated with the camel, from whose hair the lustrous cloth was supposedly woven. This may be mistaken, and more probable derivations are from the Arabic khamilah, the nap or pile of a fabric, or from an Arabic word for the Angora goat, which may also have provided raw material for the weave. Camlet was usually dyed bright red, and appears in an inventory, in 1413, of the wardrobe of King Henry IV: "Seven yards of red chamlett at 13s4d the remnant." "

http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/1 ... e.east.htm



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SyRilla
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Postby SyRilla » Tue Jan 13, 2009 3:59 pm

REPP
A plain weave fabric with a prominent weftway-rib effect, made from two warps and two wefts. Both the warp and the weft threads are arranged alternately coarse and fine. Coarse threads are raised above coarse picks and fine threads are raise above fine picks, the rib effect being accentuated by different tensions in the warps. The group of repp fabrics are known by different names depending on the prominence of the rib. Some examples, in increasing order of prominence of the rib, are taffeta, poult, faille and grosgrain.



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SyRilla
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Postby SyRilla » Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:18 am

Thank you for the help. I think I have a silk Repp, with a cotton stuffing.



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Postby seamsmistress » Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:37 pm

SyRilla wrote:Thank you for the help. I think I have a silk Repp, with a cotton stuffing.


Silk repp is the most gorgeous of fabrics - I made my Victorian wedding dress from rep duck egg blue shot pink. Still totally in love with it! The rib in mine is quite fine - we can't know how fine/heavy the rib would have been in the original fabrics, as Merlon points out. But for seriously posh noble/court Tudor, I'd certainly consider Repp or grosgrain based on the limited evidence.

Interesting that camlet was originally dyed red per your link. Also intereseting that 7 yds was considered a remnant, if that word meant the same as it does today. Your reference made me look up camlet in the wardrobe unlockd index, which tells us it was a name for a ribbed weave in 16th C'often described as repp today'. Also that it could be made of silk, camels hair and wool at this date.

Anyway, good luck with your project and don't forget to send us all pics when it's finished!



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SyRilla
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Postby SyRilla » Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:17 am

Seamsmisstres, did you wash your fabric? I have not experimented with it as yet. I had thought to try and dye the fabric to a darker shade, as in the sunlight is is almost a flesh pink. Which could be very interesting as an late Elizabethan doublet.



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Postby seamsmistress » Thu Jan 15, 2009 12:10 pm

SyRilla wrote:Seamsmisstres, did you wash your fabric? I have not experimented with it as yet.


No, i didn't wash it because I chose it for it's heavy weight and crispness -I wanted that 'rustle' the Victorians loved so much. It also has a dry clean only washcare, so I'd have been very reluctant to mess with it. That said, my Dad did manage to accidentally pour a glass of white wine down the skirt on the day, and the only immediate solution was to flush it with plenty of cold water. Fortunately, it dried with no mark or damage.


I had thought to try and dye the fabric to a darker shade, as in the sunlight is is almost a flesh pink. Which could be very interesting as an late Elizabethan doublet
It's probably worth testing on a small area but that won't tell you whether you'll manage to get an even take over the larger quantity. If it's very heavy and there's a lot of volume, you may risk the dye taking more strongly in the areas which will crease.

That said, pink isn't unknown for the period. Two paintings I can think of.
1Louis XIII of France, Frans Pourbus the younger, painted 1611, shows him wearing a carnation pink embellished gold. I think the Painting is currently in the Cleveland Museum of Art.
2. The Gentleman in Pink, 1560, Giovanni Battista Moroni. This shows him wearing a more 'flesh' coloured pink,
although the painting could be dirty and the colours, if cleaned, might be much brighter.



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SyRilla
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Postby SyRilla » Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:16 pm

If I were to dye, I would wash it first to soften, then dye so as to reduce to possibility of that issue. Sadly, it would lose that lovely sound and body that you mentioned.

The only reason I am thinking of dying the flesh is I would not want to walk around an event and be known as a nude noble. :D Also, finding a trim to coordinate with the fabric has been truly a pain.



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SyRilla
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Postby SyRilla » Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:35 pm

Did your fabric have multi colors threads? My warp threads are a neutral tan/ beige, and the weft threads are a combination of hot pink for the stuffing or ribs and orange for the flat spaces. Yes, it does sound strange, but in the sun it turns true light flesh, very close to my skin color.



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Postby Shadowcat » Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:56 pm

SyRilla wrote:
The only reason I am thinking of dying the flesh is I would not want to walk around an event and be known as a nude noble. :D Also, finding a trim to coordinate with the fabric has been truly a pain.


Black always works well with flesh pink, as does dark brown and dark green.

S.



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Postby seamsmistress » Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:14 pm

Black always works well with flesh pink, as does dark brown and dark green


I agree. Some garments were so lavishly decorated with contrast braids/embroidery that little of the base cloth remains to be seen.

I've looked at my sample sets of repp and have one here orange weft with beige warp, which shines fleshy brown in some lights and tawny in others, so I think I get an idea of how yours looks.

Because it's such an expensive cloth, I'd either
a. Put it back on the shelf for use in a later project [perhaps a victorian suit with Dark brown trimmings and accents? but that's just me :wink: ]

or
b. use it in an Elizabethan garment that had panes, where the panes were a darker/different colour. Possibly a darker colour over the repp, pinked and slashed? The repp could be further embellished with pearls.embroidery etc. However it seems a poor use of the fabric to hide it!

On balance, I'd see dying the cloth as just too risky and if it was essential, would send it out to be professionally dyed. Although that costs, it would give me recourse if they botched it, whereas if I did it myself, I'd have to live with the results and risk having to keep kicking myself every month for years to come. Timorous beastie, me!



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SyRilla
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Postby SyRilla » Fri Jan 16, 2009 9:11 am

After doing a burn and water test, I will take your suggestion of putting the fabric away till I can use it to it's full advantage. I do have a bustle gown that I have been wanting to try. :D




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