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Side lacing

Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 12:44 am
by Annis
I've constructed the interfacing for an early Tudor under kirtle which is side-laced on one side, however the strap on the side with the seam doesn't seem to fit/sit right no matter how much I fiddle about with it.

Am I correct in thinking that side-lacing can be done on both sides? It's just that I can't find any pictures online or information except one of someone's kirtle they made. If it is fine, would it sort the problem of the strap?


Thanks in advance
Annis

Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 1:20 am
by myladyswardrobe
I've actually done it both ways and find the double side lacing is far better. I found with a single side laced, if it wasn't laced properly, then the non laced side could easily not be positioned properly. Which then affects the shoulder strap as well.

Hopefully you can access this link which shows my working class side lace kirtle. http://pics.livejournal.com/myladysward ... y/000262zw
It shows the kirtle well and one image has a view of the side lacing on the LHS. Click on them to enlarge.
Image with clear view of the lacing on the RHS: http://pics.livejournal.com/myladysward ... 06bqht/g88

Blue one (used to be side laced, now its just the skirt and sleeves. Not changed because of the side lacing though.): http://pics.livejournal.com/myladysward ... 03d03d/g44 (you can see the lacing here).

Also, Ninya's images will be useful here: http://www.kissthefrog.co.uk/Princesselizabeth.html - scroll down to the white kirtle. The back view shows one side of lacing clearly but if you look carefully on the sitters RHS, you can see the "bow" of the lacing at the waist. The lacing is placed slightly to the back than with my gowns.

Hope that helps. Feel free to contact me if you need any other advice or help.

All the best

Bess.

Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 1:27 am
by Annis
Thanks for that Bess! I'll have a go at it tomorrow! :D

Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 1:30 am
by myladyswardrobe
You're welcome.

Little tip. When making it double side laced and fitting it - make it so there is a small 1/2 to 1 inch gap on BOTH sides. It allows for tightening if you need to. No more than an inch on both sides though. It was quite common for there to be a gap.

Do you have Mode a Firenze? If so, there is a painting in there which shows side lacing (or at least its showing one side) and you can clearly see the under bodice or chemise through the gap.

I'd better head off to bed now!

All the best

Bess.

Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 1:44 am
by Annis
Eep! Well, there is a substantial gap just from one side, so I'm hoping that when I'll be laced in, it will leave a bit of a gap *fingers crossed*. If not, then I'll just have to keep scoffing Christmas chocolate! :oops:

No, afraid I don't have that book!

Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 10:43 am
by myladyswardrobe
How big is the gap? If its a couple of inches or so, it will equalise on both sides well enough and this is the underkirtle so the overgown will cover it nicely anyway.

Don't worry about it. It will be lovely. Your gown was gorgeous this year.

If you are interested, I can scan in the detail of the portrait for you. There are four ladies depicted. Two seen from their left hand side and two from their right hand sid and you can see the lacings on both sides. And these are the over gowns.

Good luck with your kirtle.

Bess.

Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 11:44 am
by Sophia
Annis,

I second everything Bess said - don't worry about a gap, I had one on both sides to start with on my petticoat/kirtle for last year which was considerably smaller by the end of the main event. Whether this will be the case after a fortnight of good food at my parents' is a different matter.

Soph :D

Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:20 pm
by Annis
I reckon the gap was about 2 inches, yes. The fabric will stretch too.

It's all been finished now - although the 6 bones in the front might be too much, but I'll find out when it is complete. I really need some wool for the top fabric, but the nearest places for me are Colchester or Felixstowe :(

Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:25 pm
by myladyswardrobe
If its only 2 inches then thats no problem at all. Its quite authentic!

Ah! Wool! Hmm - yes, its not the easiest of fabrics to find. Surprisingly enough! Especially suitable weight for a gentry costume.

Good luck on that! I'm doing a hunt for my own wool too! I have something I can use but I don't think I have enough of it which means getting more!

C'est la vie!

Happy costuming!

Bess.

Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:28 pm
by Annis
:lol: Thanks! It's even harder when I want a specific colour! I'm after a nice deep red or deep pink :D

Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:48 pm
by myladyswardrobe
ah! Pink!!! VERY difficult to get a nice one in wool. Ive been looking for one too for a new working class frock.

Good luck!

Bess.

Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 12:12 am
by frances
So, why not buy some pale pink from me and then dye it in the washing machine to a deeper red with dylon dye.

There you are. simple.
http://createthemood.viviti.com/

Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 12:22 am
by Annis
frances wrote:So, why not buy some pale pink from me and then dye it in the washing machine to a deeper red with dylon dye.

There you are. simple.
http://createthemood.viviti.com/


:shock: I like your idea! Which one on your site is the pink one?

This?: http://createthemood.viviti.com/files/r ... 8a44a4.jpg

If so, do you have other pictures of it?

Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 1:27 am
by frances
Yup, that one. Wool with a twill weave, not guarenteeing that it is 100% wool but it probably is.

I am going to try to get to the store tomorrow so I will measure it and take some more pics for you.

Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 1:31 am
by Annis
Thanks Frances - I'm looking for 3-4 metres, how much would it cost? Is it possible to do a fabric test?


I'm going to The Remnant Shop in Felixstowe on Wednesday, so I'll have a look there at their wool but if they don't have any, I'll pick up some machine dye - what colour, to get a deep pink, would be suitable, seeing as it is already a pale pink and I know NOTHING about machine dyes, or dying itself!

Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 3:51 pm
by frances
I know that Remnant shop. One of the best there is, I think. You never know what you are going to find.

The Dylon rack of dyes always has a leaflet to tell you what to do. Look up to see if you need one or two packets of machine dye, you will also need a packet of salt per box of dye - it costs about £1 a packet. But you can also use any old salt. There was a thread on here last year all about using machine dyes, if you can find it - there is nothing easier.

For 3 or 4m you will not get the bulk/all discount I'm afraid. So it will cost about £7/m plus postage. If you can wait a few months for it, until I get some wheels I could deliver, as I will be coming in your direction - or are you planning to go to Boot Camp in March?

Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 4:08 pm
by Annis
Ok, thanks, I shall have a think about it, and see what Felixstowe have too.

I would prefer to have the fabric ASAP because I don't start my 2nd semester until 9th Feb so I have a month of nothing basically so I want to get the bulk of my new gentry kit made and (hopefully) ready to be checked in March before I have any more assignments to do!

Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 4:57 pm
by Jenn
Ah that's why I was feeling a bit pathethic because I've got the stage of sketching what I want on paper - checking it was okay and thinking about colours etc but no further! However I think maybe I'd better make other people's first before mine..

Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 4:37 pm
by Annis
Ok, a few more questions.

The skirt of the under-kirtle, is it best to have it simply as a length of fabric pleated, or to have it shaped/flared and then pleat it? If shaped/flared, would it be possible to use the same skirt pattern I used for my English gown (from Tudor Tailor) because the one for the kirtle in the TT is slightly less flared, but I don't want the hassle of making a new pattern when it's only a couple of inches less flared!


Also, while I'm at it (and to prevent another sleepless night), what is the best way to have lacing on a Henrican gown? The method in the TT looks complicated with the placket and everything. Is it advisable to have side lacing on the gown as well as the under kirtle (obviously I'd have a placket behind the lacing)? And how hard is back lacing?!

Thanks!
Annis

Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:00 pm
by lidimy
I'm using the placket with mine, I don't tend to use the TT instructions too much because I get well confused.... I made the placket pattern first then chopped it in half for lacing up CF, then I'll add 1cm to each side when making the placket (just to be sure that it covers the front/side seams).

Should work! :shock:

Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:06 pm
by Annis
I've looked at the pattern, but can't work out how it all goes together. Unless it's just a normal CF lacing kirtle with a seperate placket sewn down one side and hooked and eyed on the other?


But then, I'm not the worlds best hook and eye sewer-oner :(

Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:28 pm
by lidimy
I read *somewhere* that you can either pin it down both sides, or just one, and hook& eye the other. May have been the TT actually!!

TBH I think I'll pin both sides... H&Es are -such- a chore. I considered sewing in one sides too, but I thought that even if whipstitched, it could get a little bulky?

Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:32 pm
by myladyswardrobe
Annis wrote:Ok, a few more questions.

The skirt of the under-kirtle, is it best to have it simply as a length of fabric pleated, or to have it shaped/flared and then pleat it? If shaped/flared, would it be possible to use the same skirt pattern I used for my English gown (from Tudor Tailor) because the one for the kirtle in the TT is slightly less flared, but I don't want the hassle of making a new pattern when it's only a couple of inches less flared!


Also, while I'm at it (and to prevent another sleepless night), what is the best way to have lacing on a Henrican gown? The method in the TT looks complicated with the placket and everything. Is it advisable to have side lacing on the gown as well as the under kirtle (obviously I'd have a placket behind the lacing)? And how hard is back lacing?!

Thanks!
Annis


Skirt question.

Either option will work. so choose whichever is easiest for you.

Lacing/fastening question.

Though historical costumers/reenactors will never really know for sure, all the evidence points mostly to a hidden lacing with a placket over.

its actually not very difficult to create - just *looks* complicated.

I would strongly advise not using the double side (or a single) lacing as it would be seen. the only gons this sort of thing is seen un, is italian clothing and even then it is generally (not always) side vack lacing. Italian costuming is very different in fashion to the english style.

Back lacing is another question entirely. I have done this method for 3 gowns - all three of which are late 1540s. It works very well and is comfy BUT you really need someone to dress you!

Evidence for it is sketchy but TT uses it in some cases but usually beneath the overgown like the side laced underkirtles.

There is ONE 1550s french sketch showing the back of a gown which is back laced. as far as I am aware this is the only visual reference to back lacing and is rather later than 1535.

hopefully all the above will help you to decide which method of fastening you want to go with.

a question, what concerns you about the hidden lacing/placket over method? is ut the tjought of pinning it shut? if so, use hooks and hand worked bars.

also, if you want any help with fitting etc you a fery welcom to contact me.


all the best.

Bess

Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:41 pm
by myladyswardrobe
Annis wrote:I've looked at the pattern, but can't work out how it all goes together. Unless it's just a normal CF lacing kirtle with a seperate placket sewn down one side and hooked and eyed on the other?


But then, I'm not the worlds best hook and eye sewer-oner :(


Further to prev response - that's exactly how its constructed. it is very simple. Do engineer a small gap in the lacing in case of fluctuation in size (for whatever reason.)

as to sewing hoks and eyes they are easy too. give you plenty of practice.

have fun

Bess

Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:52 pm
by Annis
Thanks Bess.

I think I'll just go for a the simple length of fabric, much easier and quicker!

I'll stick to the front laced gown too then - but can it simply be made like a kirtle and then sew on an seperated placket down one side? Or is there more to it? As for the hook and eyes problem, I never seem to get them to match so they're hidden, you can always see them :(

Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 6:58 pm
by myladyswardrobe
Annis wrote:Thanks Bess.

I think I'll just go for a the simple length of fabric, much easier and quicker!

I'll stick to the front laced gown too then - but can it simply be made like a kirtle and then sew on an seperated placket down one side? Or is there more to it? As for the hook and eyes problem, I never seem to get them to match so they're hidden, you can always see them :(


You're welcome.

The front laced gown is really easy. Make as per the kirtle, though I suggest shaping the front a bit. Are you going with split front (very "new" in the 1535 for country gentry) or a closed front? Either way, shape the front pieces and have a straight piece for the back.

That easy!

You can pin - but you will need some help to make them stay put. Alternatively, if you like, I can help you get the alignment right at the Open Day.

All the best

Bess.

Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 7:04 pm
by Annis
Oh good. No, I'm not having a split, but there arises another qu. - where the skirt meets with the laced part of the bodice, there is always a small slit in the skirt to make it easier to put the garment on - how do you conceal one at the front? Me and Lidi were trying to work out from looking at your early red Henrican gown!

Do you mean shaped bodice front? I'm also thinking of a shaped skirt for the gown - suitable for 1540s when I've need a farthingale! (unless I end up with enough left over fabric)

Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 8:03 pm
by myladyswardrobe
Annis wrote:Oh good. No, I'm not having a split, but there arises another qu. - where the skirt meets with the laced part of the bodice, there is always a small slit in the skirt to make it easier to put the garment on - how do you conceal one at the front? Me and Lidi were trying to work out from looking at your early red Henrican gown!

Do you mean shaped bodice front? I'm also thinking of a shaped skirt for the gown - suitable for 1540s when I've need a farthingale! (unless I end up with enough left over fabric)


Skirt slit

Perhaps a piccie will help.

Image

(in case the picture DOESN'T appear - here's the link: http://pics.livejournal.com/myladyswardrobe/pic/0007t07t)

This isn't exact but if you can see the pleats I've indicated. Now, take into account this is a "More Family" style bodice so you have a wider gap for the lacing which is designed to be seen. This is not the case (unles you want to be quite old fashioned) for 1535.

But, the principle is the same. Say your skirt opening is on your left hand side, then you have a slit there but its hidden within a pleat. Does that make sense? To make it symetrical on both sides, you have a mirrored pleat on the right hand side.

The issue is where to do you sew the skirt to the bodice?

Sew the skirt with the proper pleat in the correct place to the the RHS lacing placket. Right to the end of the laceing.
Add a small "waistband" to the rest of the skirt and hook it up on the left hand side (to the skirt which is sewn to the side of the bodice as per normal). Then pull the lacing across over this "waistband" and lace up as per normal. The opening to the skirt is hidden in a pleat.

Yes, my red Henrician is made up exactly this way. Of course you can't see how it all fastens together. Would it help for me to pop it on my dress mannequin and take piccies? I can easily do that for you both if it will help. I agree this is not easy to work out! Its actually easier if the skirt is open at the front (wonder if thats why they did split it???).

Shaped Front.

I actually meant the skirt - shape the front (as you have it closed) like you would for a forepart - sort of triangular in shape, cut on the centre fold. (This would be the bit you are making that double pleat). The side/back is simply a straight panel of fabric. Yes, you are sewing a straight cut edge to a bias cut one, but that doesn't matter if you careful with sewing it.

The stomacher/placket which goes over the lacing should be slightly shaped. Here's another piccie to help you:

Image

(http://pics.livejournal.com/myladyswardrobe/pic/0008brq8)

You can see the lacing strip "hidden" under the placket and where it should all sit. Take not that the placket DOES have a slight waist dip. Its not a "V" shape, but when its worn, it will be cut across the waist. A straight cut going around a stomach will actually sit higher than you expect. Cut it slightly curved and it wll sit where you want it but will still be straight.

Incidentally, making this style of frock is very useful. You could easily turn thayt placket into a deeper "V" one later on!

Hope that all helps.

Bess.

Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 8:26 pm
by Annis
Right the bodice bit makes sense (I can even sew how the placket is now attached!) One thing, the top of the placket is curved, does this straighten out a bit? Because my under kirtle is straight and will have a velvet trim around the neckline which will be on show.


I'm still unsure on the skirt slit though, but my brain is near to melting point!

EDIT: I now understand the slit part - hidden in the folds of the box pleat. Just the sewing on part I'm stuck on!

Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 8:31 pm
by myladyswardrobe
Annis wrote:Right the bodice bit makes sense (I can even sew how the placket is now attached!) One thing, the top of the placket is curved, does this straighten out a bit? Because my under kirtle is straight and will have a velvet trim around the neckline which will be on show.


I'm still unsure on the skirt slit though, but my brain is near to melting point!


The curved shape is just the fashion of the time. Don't worry about it. Some are straight, some are curved though this style is probably more 1540s than 1530s. For the illustration purposes, it was to clearly delinate between the lacing bit and the placket.

As to the skirt slit, I'll take piccies of my red gown. That will help you.

Give your brain a rest now.

Bess.