Braies - a dating question?

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Shadowcat
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Braies - a dating question?

Postby Shadowcat » Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:07 pm

Someone has asked for "braies" to go under a Tudor costume. ("Pumpkin" hose?)I always thought that they were earlier that Tudor - any thoughts anyone? And should they be long or short, if right for this period?

I put this here as well as in F and G in order to get a rapid response. Thanks all.

S.



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Karen Larsdatter
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Re: Braies - a dating question?

Postby Karen Larsdatter » Tue Sep 02, 2008 2:28 pm

What part of the Tudor period? On my braies linkspage I've got fols. 9, 12, 117v, and 175v in the Great Hours of Anne of Brittany (c. 1500-1508). There's also fol. 5 in the Hours of Henry VIII; a lot of the other working men in that manuscript have stripped down to their shirt and hose, but the shirt is long enough to cover the breeches/braies.



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Postby Shadowcat » Tue Sep 02, 2008 3:53 pm

Thank you Karen. That is just what I need. It's for a friend who has been asked to make braies to go under what I call "trunk" hose, and she is calling "pumpkin" hose, and I have also heard called "melon" hose!

Suzi



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Postby Sophia » Tue Sep 02, 2008 5:48 pm

Suzi,

You might find this interesting as it also solves the problem of how to stop your knitted hose falling down/wrinkling too much.

Soph :D

[/url]


aka Thomasin Chedzoy, Tailor at Kentwell Hall

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Shadowcat
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Postby Shadowcat » Tue Sep 02, 2008 5:56 pm

Soph

did you mean to post something, as it didn't show up on my computer!

S



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Postby Sophia » Tue Sep 02, 2008 5:58 pm

Suzi,

Click on the word "this" it is a link to a very interesting picture.

Soph :D


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Colin Middleton
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Postby Colin Middleton » Thu Sep 11, 2008 12:44 pm

Just to be pedantic, I associate the term braise with the French language, so would reckon that in England we stopped wearing braise and started wearing breeches instead when our nobles stoped talking French and started using English in the 14th Century.


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Postby gregory23b » Wed Sep 17, 2008 5:36 pm

"Just to be pedantic, I associate the term braise with the French language, so would reckon that in England we stopped wearing braise and started wearing breeches instead when our nobles stoped talking French and started using English in the 14th Century."


Here, here.

Breech, breeches, breech cloth etc are all mentioned, apart from the odd 'braies de acier', why do we continue to use such a term?

the middle english dictionary does not show up braie, etc, but breche, breke etc, some juicy ones:

(c1390) Chaucer CT.Pard.(Manly-Rickert) C.950: Thow woldest make me kisse thyn olde breech And swere it were a relyk of a seint, Thogh it were with thy fundement depeynt.

c1475 Mankind (Folg V.a.354) 334: But he wyppe his ars clen..On hys breche yt xall be sene.

?a1475 Ludus C.(Vsp D.8) 204/139: My breche be nott 3ett well up-teyd, I had such hast to renne A-way.

c1400(c1378) PPl.B (LdMisc 581) 5.175: Baleised on þe bare ers, and no breche bitwene.

a1450-a1500(1436) Libel EP (Warner) 290: Wythoute Calise, in ther buttere [vr. breche] they cakked.



a1486 Arms Chivalry (Mrg M 775) 43: To arme a man..ye muste sette on Sabatones..And then griffus & then quisses & þen the breche of mayle.



cod-ware - a new software?

a1475 Russell Bk.Nurt.(Hrl 4011) 286: Put not youre handes in youre hosen, youre codware for to clawe.


middle english dictionary

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Postby red razors » Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:28 pm

i lol'd really hard at that last one :oops: i think it may have to be my signature!



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Colin Middleton
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Postby Colin Middleton » Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:43 pm

gregory23b wrote:apart from the odd 'braies de acier', why do we continue to use such a term?


A lot of terms of armour are left over from the French. Besides "breech of steel" sounds a bit perculiar! :shock:


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Postby gregory23b » Thu Sep 18, 2008 6:46 pm

No braies de acier there either


c1425(a1420) Lydg. TB (Aug A.4) 3.51: A peire breke..of maille.

a1450(a1338) Mannyng Chron.Pt.1 (Lamb 131) 10028: Hym self was armed..Wyþ sabatons..Doublet & quysseux..Voydes, breche of maille.

a1486 Arms Chivalry (Mrg M 775) 43: To arme a man..ye muste sette on Sabatones..And then griffus & then quisses & þen the breche of mayle.

breches of maile, good enough for me.

But braies for undies seems a little unknown, a reenactorism perhaps?


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Colin Middleton
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Postby Colin Middleton » Fri Sep 19, 2008 12:43 pm

gregory23b wrote:No braies de acier there either


Where?

I've seen the term in some history books. "Medieval Soldier in the Wars of the Roses" perhaps or possible "Arms & Armour of the Medieval Knight".


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Postby gregory23b » Fri Sep 19, 2008 3:31 pm

In the middle english dictionary.

The term may well be used in those books, but I would consider the following:

when the books were written

which sources they are quoting, they may well be English, they may well be French or other.

The one you may be thinking of is the Michael and Embleton Armies of Medieval Burgundy, where they are quoting a Burgundian ordinance, written in French, specific to cousteliers and even then Nick Michael translates it as 'literally breeches of steel', p 16.


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Colin Middleton
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Postby Colin Middleton » Mon Sep 22, 2008 6:39 pm

gregory23b wrote:In the middle english dictionary.
...
they may well be English, they may well be French or other.

:oops: :roll:

I was trying to make a quip, sorry.

I know that breach of mail is the usual English term and yes, they are picking up from continental sources too.


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Postby gregory23b » Tue Sep 23, 2008 3:49 pm

Ah Sorry Colin, understood (now) ;-)


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