Cotton in period

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nathan
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Postby nathan » Fri Feb 08, 2008 5:57 pm

Merlon. wrote:c1200 Trin. Coll. Hom. 163 e meshakele of medeme fustane [or perh. fustani]. c1386 CHAUCER Prol. 75 Of fustyan he wered a gepoun. c1450 Merlin 279 His clothinge was blakke fustyan with bendes on the sleues. 1502 Privy Purse Exp. Eliz. of York (1830) 16, ij yerdes of white fustyan for sokkes for the Quene.


Cool ... (Homilies in Cambridge, Trinity College)

meshakele is (i think) a 'mass' 'kemese' (so an alb in modern terms).

medeme is (a) Sufficient, proper; (b) moderate; (c) common, mediocre; also, base, worthless;

both via - http://quod.lib.umich.edu/m/med/

So it is clothing (not a tablecloth) ... but ecclesiastic ... unless i am off base with the ME.


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Postby gregory23b » Fri Feb 08, 2008 6:21 pm

"If it's off topic perhaps everyone could ignore number three from now on or open a separate thread?"

I thought that was the thrust of the initial question, why groups are apparently anti-it? Seems to be the initial query, but appears based on the two things prior to No. 3.

My poor attempt, waily waily.



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The great "Is it or is not Cotton spat of '08", perhaps?
Spandex or nothing for me now.


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Postby Sir Fletcher Phelps » Fri Feb 08, 2008 7:07 pm

Dave B wrote:You'd love that wouldn't you, you Minx.


G23B wrote:Spandex or nothing for me now.


I'm rubbing my thighs at the very thought of it! :lol:


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Dingo8MyBaby
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Postby Dingo8MyBaby » Fri Feb 08, 2008 7:10 pm

The evidence for cotton in England between 1150 and 1300 is nonexistent. No clothing item I am aware of has been found in England, or within 250 miles of it for that period. The first recorded use of cotton in England, specifically cotton as in the now accepted context and not as in the finishing of the cloth, was in a surgical document. It was recommended as a packing for deep wounds that should be replaced daily to clear the wound. Initially it would have cost more per ounce than gold so you’d have to have been fantastically rich to afford the services of a surgeon and his expenses! Way, way beyond what a knight could have afforded – probably only in the realms of a King / prince etc.
By 1360 you have the first specific documentation of rice, another item initially used by surgeons and by 1360 actually used as a food item. It was so valuable that was mentioned in a will, along with castle, lands, hunting rights, fishing rights and silk dresses and a fine wardrobe of clothing etc. No cotton clothing though by that date even in written references
One common error is that people wear their silk clothing next to their skin – but evidence clearly indicates that a fine woollen tunic/dress was first put on and the silk garment was worn over it and thus protected from sweat and a person’s dirt etc.
I am aware of many items of cotton from the fringes of Europe by the mid/late 13th cent – have seen a few as well. But it was not an Easy Jet age! Any person who went on pilgrimage to Santiago, or Rome even as far as Jerusalem was very lucky to make it there alive and almost regarded as a living miracle to make it back alive! Don’t forget that the journey there to Jerusalem was enough to wash any person of their sins and the majority who attempted it did not make it back.
The evidence of the fist crusaders who went to the Holy land and returned to Europe shows them unchanged as there was clear documentation later on in the late 13/14th cent of them pouring scorn on those who’d stayed and adopted the clothing and styles of the areas there were in. Real soldiers spent fortunes on the best arms, armour, mounts and their households. Of interesting note are early illustrations showing the horses in tent and the soldiers sleeping rough on the ground. Go figure some priorities from that.
But in the current context why not use linen? The cost for good linen is £3-5 pm and good quality cotton is the same. Linen there is a vast wealth of information about not only of the thread counts, but also the dyes used and the different weaving patterns. There is nothing of any such for cotton....
I suppose the main question is what are you trying to be? Some globe spanning medieval soldier with an item of kit from every corner of Europe or an English soldier? For the Anarchy most English soldiers were employed and remained in services in England there were large numbers of Flemish mercs also in service here. Normans who went to Italy stayed there, or did brief journeys home to raise additional troops for their adventure in the south. The drift in many cases show knights leaving England and France in the 12/13/14th cents and very, very few coming home. Why come back to an area where you can’t buy lands or estates, from areas where there were kingdoms for the taking...



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Postby Alan_F » Fri Feb 08, 2008 7:58 pm

Ariarnia wrote:[The lamellar was introduced as we have a black girl who joined and wanted to fight. She wanted ethnicity and no one was really going to believe she was a Saxon anyway. For the sake of historical authenticity I assume we should have painted her white, but leather armour was the only real alternative to the mail she should have been wearing as a professional soldier. The gentleman wearing it is the head of the northwest groups, he also has maille. He wore lamella as a change as his kit and he passes as Rus. The only objection I have to it is I can’t stand vegtan. Hideous. I don’t like yellow in general.


You've lost me completely here: Why on earth do you think that a black girl has to dress in some outlandish kit? Are you trying to suggest that no black people were in the country at the time?

And why is she portraying a professional soldier? Is there evidence for professional female soldiers?


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Postby Alan_F » Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:32 pm

Dave B wrote:
gregory23b wrote:But I am a tee totaller and I am often in bed by 9-10 and poor company.


He's also a terrible liar.


So he's not the rightful king of Norway then?


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Postby Vermin » Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:39 pm

Alan_F wrote:And why is she portraying a professional soldier? Is there evidence for professional female soldiers?



NO - STOP IT

There's enough trouble here already



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Postby Dave B » Fri Feb 08, 2008 10:03 pm

Alan_F wrote:So he's not the rightful king of Norway then?


And he won't respect you in the morning either.


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Postby Alan_F » Fri Feb 08, 2008 11:35 pm

Dave B wrote:
Alan_F wrote:So he's not the rightful king of Norway then?


And he won't respect you in the morning either.


I feel so... cheap. :cry:


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Postby gregory23b » Sat Feb 09, 2008 2:48 pm

You love it you cheap tart, oh, maybe not cheap ;-)


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Postby Alan_F » Sat Feb 09, 2008 5:32 pm

gregory23b wrote:You love it you cheap tart, oh, maybe not cheap ;-)


You have to at least buy me dinner first! :lol:


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Postby gregory23b » Sat Feb 09, 2008 5:45 pm

You would be lucky to get pizza, or chips and curry sauce.


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Postby Cat » Sat Feb 09, 2008 6:26 pm

You would have the chance to have black faces appearing in the ranks of soldiery from the Roman-types right through to now; as far as the current understanding goes(vis, the way I interpret it), whether you are black, white or green you should be appearing to be as male as you can on the field of battaille.

Sensible head off.


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Postby Nigel » Sat Feb 09, 2008 6:29 pm

well said that educational type


There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

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Postby gregory23b » Sat Feb 09, 2008 7:37 pm

Years back in the WCo, we had at times people of different hues, and the reality was few people noticed, because that is what they are used to in normal life. Very few asked in terms of the period, adn info was given if available, but even so, the gender roles were not swapped.


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Postby Dave B » Sat Feb 09, 2008 7:46 pm

Shame people can't stick to that in the beer tent


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Postby Alan_F » Sun Feb 10, 2008 6:46 am

Cat wrote:You would have the chance to have black faces appearing in the ranks of soldiery from the Roman-types right through to now; as far as the current understanding goes(vis, the way I interpret it), whether you are black, white or green you should be appearing to be as male as you can on the field of battaille.

Sensible head off.


Good point well made, but why a black woman is dressed as a Saracen is beyond me - anyone looking like a Saracen in England at the time of the Crusades is very likely to have had a baying mob after them.

Not arguing with you Cat, just wondering at the logic of why a black person has to be a Saracen. :?


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Postby Sir Fletcher Phelps » Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:51 pm

Dave B wrote:Shame people can't stick to that in the beer tent


John Wycliffe's Bible, mate.....you love it! :lol:


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Postby Ariarnia » Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:55 am

*ducks head in*

she is a woman, she does not fight as a woman

as for her being a Saracen, we find it quite nice to be able to say, and this is what the other cultures of the world looked like at the time when doing school shows. same reason as we have welsh and rus. a little bit of ethnic diversity. Richard did have a company of them in england after all, tho I do give that they were horse archers.

*ducks out*



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Postby Alan_F » Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:43 am

You're not going to any Scottish shows this year are you?


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Postby Ariarnia » Mon Feb 11, 2008 4:47 am

If you want to talk to the heads of our cells in Stirling or Edinbourough I can give you the details.

I am merely a Welshie.



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Postby Malvoisin » Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:28 pm

Ariarnia wrote:
as for her being a Saracen, we find it quite nice to be able to say, and this is what the other cultures of the world...
...a little bit of ethnic diversity. Richard did have a company of them in england after all, tho I do give that they were horse archers.


Sorry to hijack your cotten thread Ariarnia.
This is new to me. Did Richard bring them back from the crusades?


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Postby Dave B » Mon Feb 11, 2008 6:09 pm

Sir Fletcher Phelps wrote:
Dave B wrote:Shame people can't stick to that in the beer tent


John Wycliffe's Bible, mate.....you love it! :lol:


OK, Guilty as charged. Apart from Steve at Blore, that was, in the words of the song 'a touch to much'


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Postby Dan of Britannia » Mon Feb 11, 2008 6:28 pm

This is one long cotton thread!

Here I go again!


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Postby Sir Fletcher Phelps » Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:07 pm

Dave B wrote:
Sir Fletcher Phelps wrote:
Dave B wrote:Shame people can't stick to that in the beer tent


John Wycliffe's Bible, mate.....you love it! :lol:


OK, Guilty as charged. Apart from Steve at Blore, that was, in the words of the song 'a touch to much'


Yeah, I'll go along with you there! :lol:


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Postby Medicus Matt » Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:17 pm

Dan of Britannia wrote:This is one long cotton thread!

Here I go again!


I'm amazed that you've refrained from making some sort of smutty comment involving the words 'cotton' and 'period'.

You filth-monger you.


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Postby Dan of Britannia » Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:58 pm

It never occured to me!

I must be slipping!!!!!! :cry:


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Postby Random Mumblings » Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:33 pm

Dan of Britannia wrote:It never occured to me!

I must be slipping!!!!!! :cry:


There, there. It's not your fault. Blame the compressed rodent based trauma you've experienced today.



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Postby lidimy » Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:33 pm

Dan of Britannia wrote:It never occured to me!

I must be slipping!!!!!! :cry:


And you've only just cottoned on to that?



sorry, that was unforgivable.


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Postby nathan » Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:13 am

lidimy wrote:sorry, that was unforgivable.


Yup. :)


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