Cotton in period

Making, Pictures, Queries, Resources

Moderator: Moderators

Nigel
Post Knight
Posts: 1675
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 7:45 am
Location: Pontefract
Contact:

Postby Nigel » Wed Feb 06, 2008 4:18 pm

Ariarnia wrote:Only real question would be relating to where she found the pictures. I haven't seen some of those. If she is not in the group then she requires some kind of award.


knowing rumbly probably on u tube facebook or myspace


There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

User avatar
Aelfric
Posts: 61
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2005 9:32 am
Location: Cheshire
Contact:

Postby Aelfric » Wed Feb 06, 2008 4:21 pm

Medicus Matt wrote:
Aelfric wrote:cum alter ego


Ewwww...


It is indeed truly vile



Random Mumblings
Posts: 98
Joined: Fri May 04, 2007 2:54 pm

Postby Random Mumblings » Wed Feb 06, 2008 4:36 pm

Nigel wrote:
Ariarnia wrote:Only real question would be relating to where she found the pictures. I haven't seen some of those. If she is not in the group then she requires some kind of award.


knowing rumbly probably on u tube facebook or myspace


Yup, got it in one. Facebook pictures of a show at Clitheroe Castle. I'm a demon searcher, I should work for MI5, me...... :lol:



User avatar
zauberdachs
Post Centurion
Posts: 695
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:38 pm

Postby zauberdachs » Wed Feb 06, 2008 4:36 pm

That's quite a turn out in those pictures, roughly treble the size of this years Bannockburn :lol:


Do not be loath, diligent reader, to winnow my chaff, and lay up the wheat in the storehouse of your memory. For truth regards not who is the speaker, nor in what manner it is spoken, but that the thing be true - Nennius, 8th century

Ariarnia
Posts: 98
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:50 pm

Postby Ariarnia » Wed Feb 06, 2008 4:43 pm

Do you mean audience or fighters?

The clithero show was on for most of the day as a LHS and the fighting itself was only about 20 minutes with about a half hour of sparing following it. The clashing drew a fair gathering.

As for the number of troops, thats two of our cells, about 60 men in all. The rest are in the middle of nowhere (scots and so on)



User avatar
zauberdachs
Post Centurion
Posts: 695
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:38 pm

Postby zauberdachs » Wed Feb 06, 2008 4:46 pm

Ariarnia wrote:Do you mean audience or fighters?

The clithero show was on for most of the day as a LHS and the fighting itself was only about 20 minutes with about a half hour of sparing following it. The clashing drew a fair gathering.

As for the number of troops, thats two of our cells, about 60 men in all. The rest are in the middle of nowhere (scots and so on)


probably both :)

Stormy weather and poor a reputation will do that for an event.


Do not be loath, diligent reader, to winnow my chaff, and lay up the wheat in the storehouse of your memory. For truth regards not who is the speaker, nor in what manner it is spoken, but that the thing be true - Nennius, 8th century

User avatar
zauberdachs
Post Centurion
Posts: 695
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:38 pm

Postby zauberdachs » Wed Feb 06, 2008 4:54 pm

Ariarnia wrote:The rest are in the middle of nowhere (scots and so on)


Oh, almost didn't notice that. Scotland is the middle of no where? Edinburgh is the Athens of the North or so we like to think. Anyway I thought you said you were based in Wales? ;)


Do not be loath, diligent reader, to winnow my chaff, and lay up the wheat in the storehouse of your memory. For truth regards not who is the speaker, nor in what manner it is spoken, but that the thing be true - Nennius, 8th century

GuyofBurgundy
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2008 11:40 pm

Postby GuyofBurgundy » Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:03 pm

I must say some of those pictures immediately make me sigh; some of the NW groups in my absence managed to accumulate the worlds worst kit in a very, very short space of time; which is now being systematically overhauled/retired.
Some of the kit I'm still quite happy with how it turned out; the number of 'funnies' does make for interesting impressions (non-N.European fighters; we have a few out of ethnic neccesity, but too many folks LOVE the idea and migrate towards it; it's been halted as stands) and some of the weirder kit has dissapeared... TG. But yes, that was this time last year. It was actually when the kit-regs got overhauled as a response to some of the stuff, especially amongst the 'local' militia (right hand side unit as the pictures are taken).



Ariarnia
Posts: 98
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:50 pm

Postby Ariarnia » Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:06 pm

The group is based in North England (Liverpool/Manchester way) there are two cells in scotland (Stirling and Edinburgh) and a further 2 in Wales (mid-Wales that is) with one being set up soonish in the north of Wales and another in the south.

Dan is in Wales at the moment and so the focus shifts (as you may have gathered he is somewhat strong minded and charismatic, holding the groups together and occasionally banging heads) Its going to be four groups set up in as many years.

*shrug*

It is fairly easy to get to Cheshire and Lancashire from mid-Wales so the mid-Wales and North-West do shows together. Scotland on the other hand is that much harder to get to.



User avatar
zauberdachs
Post Centurion
Posts: 695
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:38 pm

Postby zauberdachs » Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:19 pm

Ariarnia wrote:It is fairly easy to get to Cheshire and Lancashire from mid-Wales so the mid-Wales and North-West do shows together. Scotland on the other hand is that much harder to get to.


Just joking, take no notice... Besides you can get anywhere in the UK from Edinburgh in... like, 12 hours.... :lol:


Do not be loath, diligent reader, to winnow my chaff, and lay up the wheat in the storehouse of your memory. For truth regards not who is the speaker, nor in what manner it is spoken, but that the thing be true - Nennius, 8th century

User avatar
Dave B
Post Knight
Posts: 1737
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2005 9:34 pm
Location: Cheshire
Contact:

Postby Dave B » Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:45 pm

Nigel wrote:Re Will it be allowed at Middlewhich in ny form again NO


Does that include tents?

(Ducks)


Find time in every day to look at your life and say; 'Well, it could be worse'

Kurt's uncle Bob.

User avatar
Tuppence
Post Knight
Posts: 1397
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2005 6:20 pm
Location: chaos-world, west yorks
Contact:

Postby Tuppence » Wed Feb 06, 2008 6:27 pm

ok, being up front and admitting I haven't read the whole of this discussion, as have been working since early yesterday sometime... so apologies if repeating stuff....


the very first extant garment or fragment of garment from Britain that uses cotton in a fabric form is (as far as I'm aware - as ever - there may always be something hidden away in a reserve or private collection) a dress in the v&a. It dates to the 1660s. despite the fact that the dress is made of metallic silk tissue, and heavily decorated with passementerie, the only part of the dress to utilise cotton is the lining of the sleeves.

therefore by the mid 17th century, cotton fabric was so expensive that a court level gown made in one of the most expensive fabrics available was only minimally lined with cotton fabric.

additionally, as I did notice was mentioned earlier, the term 'cotton' does not necessarily mena in historical documents what we may expect it to mean today (i.e. it may refer to wools, or other fibres or frabrics of which we have no or little knowledge).


rewinding a bit, there is evidence (port records, account books, etc) that cotton fleece (raw cotton in a more or less natural state) was quite widely imported into britain during later medieval times for use in padding. this is backed up by the existance of several extant pieces which use cotton as their padding layers.



I'd be very wary of using cotton for body linens - all the documented evidence, including extant pieces that belonged to royalty, royal clothing and wardrobe accounts, etc, etc, and from many periods, have been made in linen.

Linen is stronger (though as a fibre more brittle) than cotton, it absorbs moisture better, and it's more comfortable to wear next to the skin. Pre spinning jenny (sp?) it was also possible to gain a finer weave from linen than cotton.

I'd suggest that there's probably a very good reason for linen having been the fabric of choice for the best shirts well into the twentieth century.



Cotton was not a widely available resource as previously mentioned, in Conquest, as far as I am aware, silk is restricted in usage, medium ranks may have some edging while those more senior may have silk items.


Whilst not wishing to get into an argument I'm not sure here of the relavance of that - plus it's always been my understanding that rank is determined (off the battlefield at least) by simply having the appropriate kit. I.e. (as I said, off the field) you wanna be a baron, you dress like one.
Don't see the point of it myself.


Whilst in northern Italy last year . Went to a museum as you do lots about growing cotton and making cotton fabric from 1100 on wards .My friend translated a bit that seemed to say that cotton was so common for all, that the posh folks wore linen as it was not common and had to be imported!!.



Well I'd also be wary of that information without knowing its source.
But regardless of that, that's Italy, and not necessarily relevant if we're talking about northern europe (are we, btw - haven't read whole thread, as said).

Cotton prefers warm climates (sub-tropical plant). Therefore cotton could be grown in Italy. The same cannot be said of Britain.
Linen tends to prefer cooler climates (temperate plant), so might not be so easy to grow in Italy.

So logically it makes sense even without a source.

But then again, (assuming it's properly sourced info etc) it could simply be that they imported linen because it was nicer & it wasn't grown in Italy.


"What a lovely hat! But may I make one teensy suggestion? If it blows off, don't chase it."
Miss Piggy
RIP Edward the avatar cat.

User avatar
Simon_Diment
Posts: 148
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 3:48 pm
Location: Nottingham
Contact:

Postby Simon_Diment » Wed Feb 06, 2008 7:37 pm

GuyofBurgundy
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 4:03 pm Post subject:
I must say some of those pictures immediately make me sigh; some of the NW groups in my absence managed to accumulate the worlds worst kit in a very, very short space of time; which is now being systematically overhauled/retired.
Some of the kit I'm still quite happy with how it turned out; the number of 'funnies' does make for interesting impressions (non-N.European fighters; we have a few out of ethnic neccesity, but too many folks LOVE the idea and migrate towards it; it's been halted as stands) and some of the weirder kit has dissapeared... TG. But yes, that was this time last year. It was actually when the kit-regs got overhauled as a response to some of the stuff, especially amongst the 'local' militia (right hand side unit as the pictures are taken).


I'm sorry you're trying to conduct a serious discussion about the use of cotton in opposition to linen, which is well documented and more accurate, when you field members looking like that? :roll: What on earth is the bloke in the dark fabric and leather chicken suit trying to portray btw?

As for your argument for cotton usage then I think some comments from another thread are more than appropriate here:

ah, the line of your argument can be described thus:

1. I really want one
2. I'll rationalise till I can have one
3. yey! I can have one

Most people on here will bitch slap you for that. We've all done it but it's bad. We tend to encourage:

1. What does the evidence show?
2. Oh, it shows people wearing/using this
3. ok then, it's not necessarily the coolest or cheapest thing but I'll get it because it's correct

It's important because it's the very tiny difference between bad panto and re-enactment Wink


There are more than enough well established societies who would be happy to give you advice on all aspects of the period you're portraying.

From your previous posts we can all tell that you have a very deep passion for what you do and we hope that you can continue to raise your members expectations of themselves to match yours. Good luck.


Bitter and Twisted IS a lifestyle option!
www.angevin.org

User avatar
Simon_Diment
Posts: 148
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 3:48 pm
Location: Nottingham
Contact:

Postby Simon_Diment » Wed Feb 06, 2008 7:41 pm

Tuppence
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:27 pm
Quote:
Cotton was not a widely available resource as previously mentioned, in Conquest, as far as I am aware, silk is restricted in usage, medium ranks may have some edging while those more senior may have silk items.


Whilst not wishing to get into an argument I'm not sure here of the relavance of that - plus it's always been my understanding that rank is determined (off the battlefield at least) by simply having the appropriate kit. I.e. (as I said, off the field) you wanna be a baron, you dress like one.
Don't see the point of it myself.


Hi 2D

One of the original posts stated words to the effect of 'Conquest will allow silk but not cotton for Middlewich' so I was trying to be more specific.


Bitter and Twisted IS a lifestyle option!

www.angevin.org

GuyofBurgundy
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2008 11:40 pm

Postby GuyofBurgundy » Wed Feb 06, 2008 8:03 pm

The ''chickensuit'' is actually a leather lamellar; I think, even if you do not agree with another society, that being rude is not in any way productive. I admit a lot of that side needed a tonne of work regarding kit; but as Lamellar is used by a LOT of groups, epecifically picking on this example is somewhat unfair.
If you would like to debate further, I would be welcome to do so; but in a productive manner.
-Dan-



User avatar
Heloise
Posts: 18
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 10:38 am

Postby Heloise » Wed Feb 06, 2008 8:43 pm

It does look a bit unlike anything else I've seen, I have to admit. Again, I would be interested in your primary evidence? And yes, I would ask this of anyone who had leather lamellar, or leather armour in general. It's been discussed here before and I don't think a satisfactory answer was found.

One question though - did those arrows in the pictures get shot? There seems to be public all the way round the arena. They do seem a bit 'larpy' :D

Please don't take offence at everything people say, some have more tact than others and you have the usual problems with tone in this medium etc. I hope you will see this as an opportunity to interact with others who have done the research you have, and then some. Have you done many shows with other groups? :D



User avatar
Aelfric
Posts: 61
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2005 9:32 am
Location: Cheshire
Contact:

Postby Aelfric » Wed Feb 06, 2008 9:10 pm

GuyofBurgundy wrote:as Lamellar is used by a LOT of groups


Can't think of one operating in or around this period myself to be honest, certainly none of the bigger ones.



Nigel
Post Knight
Posts: 1675
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 7:45 am
Location: Pontefract
Contact:

Postby Nigel » Thu Feb 07, 2008 10:07 am

I have directed the Lamalar God himslef here

So expect a psoting from Dr Dawson


There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

User avatar
zauberdachs
Post Centurion
Posts: 695
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:38 pm

Postby zauberdachs » Thu Feb 07, 2008 10:38 am

There is very similar Lamellar armour in from the archaeology of the battle of Wisby book, which is dated to 1361. For similar armour the authors site examples from Eastern Europe and er... Tibet.


Do not be loath, diligent reader, to winnow my chaff, and lay up the wheat in the storehouse of your memory. For truth regards not who is the speaker, nor in what manner it is spoken, but that the thing be true - Nennius, 8th century

Lady Cecily
Posts: 316
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:05 pm

Postby Lady Cecily » Thu Feb 07, 2008 11:09 am

zauberdachs wrote:There is very similar Lamellar armour in from the archaeology of the battle of Wisby book, which is dated to 1361. For similar armour the authors site examples from Eastern Europe and er... Tibet.


You guys know I'm not an armour kind of gal - but arn't the lames from Wisby for inside coats of plates? Bit late for a dateline of 1215 as well - is that the late date on this groups statement of dates? Forgive me if I've remebered this wrong from yesteday.


Caroline

User avatar
Medicus Matt
Post Knight
Posts: 1470
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:16 pm
Location: Zummerzet
Contact:

Postby Medicus Matt » Thu Feb 07, 2008 11:23 am

Lady Cecily wrote:
You guys know I'm not an armour kind of gal - but arn't the lames from Wisby for inside coats of plates? Bit late for a dateline of 1215 as well - is that the late date on this groups statement of dates? Forgive me if I've remebered this wrong from yesteday.


Correct. And they weren't made from thin bits of leather either.

Sorry GofB but combined with the very obviously spun domed helmets, the bizarre collection of shields (both in terms of shape and horrible 'knotwork' designs), the dreadful scabbard arangements (a bugbear for me I'm afraid. I make authentic scabbards, giz a job), and what appear to be young lads with no shoes in white pajamas carrying sponges on sticks (what's that about?Seriously) this appears to be more an attempt to re-enact early medieval re-enactment circa 1980 rather than re-enactment itself.
Whilst many of us here (especially those of us who have set up our own societies) will sympathise with the difficulties of 'getting it right', there are so many good groups to study and such a wide range of on-line and off-line resources available to help new starters that pictures like these are going to provoke a negative reaction.
Last edited by Medicus Matt on Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.


"I never said that I was here to help."

User avatar
zauberdachs
Post Centurion
Posts: 695
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:38 pm

Postby zauberdachs » Thu Feb 07, 2008 11:28 am

Folks, I don't think any of this "dressing down" is necessary. They have stated that the photos are not representative of their organisation at their best.

So leave it, they agree with you.

You are just being rude now....


Do not be loath, diligent reader, to winnow my chaff, and lay up the wheat in the storehouse of your memory. For truth regards not who is the speaker, nor in what manner it is spoken, but that the thing be true - Nennius, 8th century

Dan of Britannia
Post Centurion
Posts: 602
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 11:59 am
Location: Essex/London UK
Contact:

Postby Dan of Britannia » Thu Feb 07, 2008 11:43 am

Yeah!!! That told you, you cotton picky Cottonpickers!!!!!


www.durolitum.co.uk

Conare nullius momenti videri fortasse missilibus careant.
(Try to look unimportant, they may be low on ammo).

User avatar
Dave B
Post Knight
Posts: 1737
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2005 9:34 pm
Location: Cheshire
Contact:

Postby Dave B » Thu Feb 07, 2008 11:49 am

What he said.

If the aim is to improve the general standard of re-enactment then you'll catch more flies with honey than with Vinegar.


Find time in every day to look at your life and say; 'Well, it could be worse'



Kurt's uncle Bob.

User avatar
zauberdachs
Post Centurion
Posts: 695
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:38 pm

Postby zauberdachs » Thu Feb 07, 2008 11:49 am

Dan of Britannia wrote:Yeah!!! That told you, you cotton picky Cottonpickers!!!!!


You're awesome. That would have been a much wittier response, why didn't I think of that...


Do not be loath, diligent reader, to winnow my chaff, and lay up the wheat in the storehouse of your memory. For truth regards not who is the speaker, nor in what manner it is spoken, but that the thing be true - Nennius, 8th century

Dan of Britannia
Post Centurion
Posts: 602
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 11:59 am
Location: Essex/London UK
Contact:

Postby Dan of Britannia » Thu Feb 07, 2008 11:50 am

You will Oscar... you will! :wink:


www.durolitum.co.uk



Conare nullius momenti videri fortasse missilibus careant.

(Try to look unimportant, they may be low on ammo).

User avatar
Medicus Matt
Post Knight
Posts: 1470
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:16 pm
Location: Zummerzet
Contact:

Postby Medicus Matt » Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:09 pm

zauberdachs wrote:Folks, I don't think any of this "dressing down" is necessary. They have stated that the photos are not representative of their organisation at their best.

So leave it, they agree with you.

You are just being rude now....


I don't think I've been rude and if anyone thinks that I have then they're too thin skinned to be a re-enactor. It's a hobby for people of passion, if you're not passionate about it then chances are that you're probably just in it for the dressing up and hitting people with stuff and there's a good chance that you'd be just as happy LARP'ing.

You don't stick your head over the parapet of public facing re-enactment unless your prepared to be evaluated and stand prepared to be criticised by your peers.

I'll admit that I have a great deal of sympathy with GofB. Running a group is a thankless and stressful enough task when you've exercised control of it's development from the behinning. To have a group thats grown so quickly without localised expertise or experience in producing good quality kit must be a nightmare. To then have photos of it unearthed and posted...well it makes that part of me that has been there before sink like a stone (mine was one of the first UK groups to start trying to do Roman gladiatorial stuff and I'll tell you now, the kit we had for our first show was crap).

Andd let's not forget that the original enquiry was one regarding authenticity approaches taken in different groups.


"I never said that I was here to help."

User avatar
Lindsay
Posts: 90
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:39 pm
Location: Flitting between Selkirk and St Andrews

Postby Lindsay » Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:16 pm

Re: Lamellar

I found this quote in the new Galloglass book, it's a description of Hebridean and Manx troops taken from Gerald of Wales Conquest of Ireland:

They were warlike figures, clad in mail in every part of their body after the Danish manner. Some wore long coats of mail, others iron plates skilfully knitted together, and they had round, red shields protected by iron round the edge.


Could this be Lamellar?


Historians did it in the past.

Founder of SAG:
The breakaway Society for the Appreciation of Guthrie.

User avatar
Brother Ranulf
Post Centurion
Posts: 961
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:46 pm
Location: Canterbury

Postby Brother Ranulf » Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:18 pm

Looking back over this thread, one claim has been repeated several times; namely that the word cotton did not mean cotton, it meant a wool cloth with a particular finish (presumably making it a cheap copy of cotton). No evidence has been put forward for this claim, despite it being a crucial linguistic point.

Languages have a very strange characteristic: they do not include words for items unknown in the culture. Ancient Egyptian had no word for "iron" before foreigners introduced it; Japanese had no words for "bread" or "gun" until such things were introduced; 17th century English had no words for "linoleum", "telephone" or "garage".

So, it follows logically that we should not expect to find any reference to cotton in 12th century Anglo-Norman, nor in the early Middle English spoken after about 1150. If there was no cotton, there was no need for the word - in fact, its use would be impossible if the stuff were unknown and no-one had ever seen it. This makes the above claim somewhat doubtful - how could anyone liken a wool finish to a material they had never seen, or use an Arabic word they were unfamiliar with?

Consulting the Dictionary of Anglo-Norman, spoken specifically in England in the 12th and 13th centuries, we find the entry under
cotun, coton, cotone, cotonn, cotoun, cotounn; the definition is given as cotton, cotton wool, cotton yarn or thread. No mention of wool finished like cotton, but there are numerous citations of its use in literature, borough records, medical texts and so on.

Under fustian, we find the definition "sort of cloth made of cotton and flax", again with citations.

Consulting the Middle English Dictionary, the entry is:
coton (n.) Also cot(e)in, cotom, couton.

(a) The plant yielding cotton; (b) raw cotton, cotton fiber, cotton wool; cotton fiber spun into yarn or thread; candle-wicking of cotton; ~ candel, candles made with cotton wicking; ~ sponni, cotton yarn or thread; ~ wolle, raw cotton; (c) cloth made of cotton; also, ?(woolen) cloth with a cottony nap, Welsh cotton; ~ cloth; ~ roll, cotton (or napped) cloth in the roll; ~ roset, cotton russet, a kind of russet cloth.

Here, among all the other meanings, appears the definition "?(woolen) cloth with a cottony nap", the question mark indicating some uncertainty. Picking out just this one (uncertain) definition and ignoring the remainder would be manipulative in the extreme. It does start to make sense, however. First came cotton imports (the real thing, accompanied by the word used to refer to it), then followed attempts to replicate its feel and texture with cheaper local materials.

Let's return to the writings of Alexander Neckham, particularly his De nominibus utensilium. I have already cited his description of shirt materials appropriate to a wealthy knight (he says "Baron"). In his description of the furnishings of a baron's bed-chamber he says:

"On the bed itself should be placed a feather mattress to which a bolster is attached. A quilted pad of striped cloth should cover this on which a cushion for the head can be placed. Then sheets of muslin, ordinary cotton, or at least pure linen should be laid . . . ."

Moving on to the dress of a lady's maid: " . . .and a brooch by which she can fasten the neck of her cote, or fustian, or shift . . .". Here the term fustian is used for a garment made from that material, which is a cotton/flax mix according to the definition above.

So, the word was in the language from the time of Neckham's De nominibus utensilium (around 1180), if not before. It refers to the real thing, not a wool copy; cotton was used for tablecloths, bed sheets, shirts and shifts, but only by those at the highest end of the social scale and their household servants.
Last edited by Brother Ranulf on Thu Feb 07, 2008 2:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.


Brother Ranulf

"Patres nostri et nos hanc insulam in brevi edomuimus in brevi nostris subdidimus legibus, nostris obsequiis mancipavimus" - Walter Espec 1138

User avatar
Medicus Matt
Post Knight
Posts: 1470
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:16 pm
Location: Zummerzet
Contact:

Postby Medicus Matt » Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:21 pm

Oops! Was editing a previous post to clarify a point and ended up reposting it. Nothing to see here. Move along. :oops:


"I never said that I was here to help."


Return to “Costumes”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests