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guthrie
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Postby guthrie » Tue Jul 24, 2007 2:43 pm

WEll, it all depends- if they have to specifically take time to go to the post office, they may charge for their time. However a tenner does seem rather exhorbitant unless you specifically wanted it the next day and they had to drive for an hour to find an open post office.



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zauberdachs
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Postby zauberdachs » Tue Jul 24, 2007 2:56 pm

No, you set up an account with a courier and they come and pick it up from your house. All for under a tenner.


Do not be loath, diligent reader, to winnow my chaff, and lay up the wheat in the storehouse of your memory. For truth regards not who is the speaker, nor in what manner it is spoken, but that the thing be true - Nennius, 8th century

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gregory23b
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Postby gregory23b » Tue Jul 24, 2007 3:02 pm

"learly on the label £4.50 .... this made me see red all morning.... It's a con and shameful for anyone who does it..."

The price of posting and the actual cost of posting are different things, it does not include packaging, which if for a special item or fragile one takes not just adequate packaging but time to do it. There is little point in reducing your time profits by absorbing the packaging or more importantly the time taken to get it off.

I do sympathise however I have been diddled by some ebay sellers for example where they charged a huge postage rate and I expected a well wrapped piece of work - it was an ancient print, it came in a normal envelope, which was slightly bent. Teh postage was more than the item cost, I was not the only one to complain about this, he sent from Germany whereas I got fed exed soem stuff form the states at a much better rate and better wrapping, it is an arseache for sure though.

I mail order some stuff and have to make a decision on how much the postage and packing costs, it is usually the cost of the actual postage plus the cost of the box or parcel (can be a couple of quid easily) etc, with a minute amount to cover time, which it never really does.


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Isabela on G23b "...somehow more approachable in real life"

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"I know my place." Alice the Huswyf

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Annie the Pedlar
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Postby Annie the Pedlar » Tue Jul 24, 2007 3:06 pm

Hang on. You haven't factored in the cost of the jiffy bag, the selotape to seal it (Oh silly me, he wouldn't be using a knackered previously used bag like I do - it would be a new one - no selotape - lick and stick) the ink used to write the address.
Then there's the time to pack and the time (and petrol?) taken to get to the post office and back.

Shucks! I usually charge 50p. I've been going soooooooooooo wrong!



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zauberdachs
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Postby zauberdachs » Tue Jul 24, 2007 3:07 pm

It's adding an extra x amount to the price of your goods via the back door and is deception and evil :)

and another personal bug bear of mine....

butting out now.


Do not be loath, diligent reader, to winnow my chaff, and lay up the wheat in the storehouse of your memory. For truth regards not who is the speaker, nor in what manner it is spoken, but that the thing be true - Nennius, 8th century

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Annie the Pedlar
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Postby Annie the Pedlar » Tue Jul 24, 2007 3:54 pm

Think yourself lucky they didn't add VAT. Or did they?

Now that's my bugbear. Being sweet and innocent I always fall for the "Oh look it's only £*" then think "You stupid fool. Look at the total after they've added the VAT at the end. Do you really want to pay that much?" And I answer "I want it! I want it! I want it now!!!!" Then I tell myself off. And then I get it. Ha ha ha.



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gregory23b
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Postby gregory23b » Tue Jul 24, 2007 4:01 pm

"It's adding an extra x amount to the price of your goods via the back door and is deception and evil Smile"

You don't get away that easily :D

Item X costs say £20 and is the product of an hour's work, and allow for the cost to make it, say the lucky soul gets £15 per hour or 25p a minute.

Anythign that takes more than a few minutes to pack and costs the price of an envelope eats into the actual wage you are trying to earn.

If it takes ten minutes and a few quid of packaging on top of the postage then you are really biting the bullet. That can easily represent a fiver's worth of time and wrapping.

You could say, well spread the costs of the postage over all the items you sell, that is much more unfair as it is not even quantified and why should someone at a fair pay for something they are picking up? Free delivery or at cost is rarely free or at cost.

When someone orders items over £30 from me or commissioned or limited edition items - eg cards, I state clearly that special delivery will be used in order to cover both of us, I get refunded if the package fails to turn up and they can get a new one or a refund likewise. I charge the cost of the delivery plus about a quid over in the case of the cards - because I have to make sure that they get the best chance to arrive in as good a condition as they can and that takes a bit of time, wrapping and sellotape, it does not really cover my chargeable time.

I could of course just add another quid or two to the base item, but why when quite a few were sold over the counter?

It is mainly a problem for smaller operators like me who do some mail order but nowhere near enough to qualify for huge business discounts that can be passed on. We can never compete with the bigger people on that level.

Also if you are up front and explain why, as I do re the special delivery you cannot be accused of deception or price hiking as it is patently obvious that in most cases it does not cover the costs of doing it in reality, it is mitigation nothign more.

Your hose example is apparently a p*ss take and you would be right to be annoyed.


middle english dictionary

Isabela on G23b "...somehow more approachable in real life"

http://medievalcolours.blogspot.com

"I know my place." Alice the Huswyf

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zauberdachs
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Postby zauberdachs » Tue Jul 24, 2007 4:24 pm

gregory23b wrote:Your hose example is apparently a p*ss take and you would be right to be annoyed.


Indeed, I'm not knocking adding money that actually represents labour put in.

As a small business trader I only charged people by rounding postage up and saying it was a packing charge. For example if postage for x item was going to be £2.58 I'd charge them £3. Made things simpler for me, simpler for their billing and isn't a terrible rip off. Now if I'd charged them £13 I'd have been ripping them off.


Do not be loath, diligent reader, to winnow my chaff, and lay up the wheat in the storehouse of your memory. For truth regards not who is the speaker, nor in what manner it is spoken, but that the thing be true - Nennius, 8th century

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gregory23b
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Postby gregory23b » Tue Jul 24, 2007 5:27 pm

That is of course your prerogative, but at what point does the packaging element become counter productive in terms of the cost of the job? That especially applies to thinkgs like fragile items that may well need packaging over an above the norm, or oddly shaped things.

If all the product is a simple flat, easy and/or cheap thing to package then yes, it is easier to round up etc. If I sell prints and they are of the smaller variety they go in normal post and usually don't get charged at all, I can't be bothered with adding 30p to the bill, but more complex items and especially the commissioned work that often needs a bit more care can have considerable efforts in packing.

As a buyer I prefer to know what I am actually paying for, especially if I see an item for one price at a place then somehow different in another.

What I don't like is surcharges on some paypal bought items, arguably they will say it is the same thing, but I would say they do not have to use paypal in the first instance, the sellers who do that are trying to reduce loss from the smaller sales.


middle english dictionary

Isabela on G23b "...somehow more approachable in real life"

http://medievalcolours.blogspot.com

"I know my place." Alice the Huswyf

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Postby Nigel » Tue Jul 24, 2007 9:31 pm

Doesn't surprise me and I think I can guess who it is

Given the amount of time Debs spends packing an item she doesn't charge for her time just postage costs and materials used


There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

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Neibelungen
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Postby Neibelungen » Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:30 am

I thought I might add a quick note since this topic had moved on towards the question of postage.

OTHER LEGISLATION AFFECTING CONSUMER CONTRACTS

Loss or damage in transit

If the trader arranges for goods to be delivered to a consumer, the goods remain at the trader’s risk until delivery. It is, therefore, the trader’s responsibility to ensure that goods are not lost or damaged in transit, and/or to take out appropriate insurance. It follows that optional postal insurance should never be offered to consumers.


http://www.tradingstandards.gov.uk/cgi-bin/bglitem.cgi?file=badv073-1011.txt

Now that's quite interesting because it stands at odds completely with the usual practise with most people on E-bay. It's slightly different if your purchase is a B2B deal since that's bound by the contract terms, and also if the sale is from an individual. However it's never really been clarified when an individual sale and selling on e-bay in quantity to be a business starts. Usually it's taken to be more than three cases in a year with a view to making a profit (see Tax office determination of car boot sales)

Interstingly, if your selling online or in a non face-to-face manner your obligated to specify the cost of postage before the contract and not afterwards.
Also the customer is allowed 7 days after reciept of the goods to examine them and can cancel the contract within that time and is entitled to a full refund without any questions. It's different if your supplying services (ie making something to order), then it's a 7 day period after the contract is agreed.

It's also a case that within the first 6 months of purchase, faults are deemed to automatically exist and the onus is on the seller to prove otherwise.

I can't actually find any information regarding what determines an acceptable fee for postage and what doesn't. However I would think that most SCC would probably agree that postage cost plus packaging cost would be reasonable, since the time taken posting is actually the sellers responsibility unless the price is clearly outlined beforehand.



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Neibelungen
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Postby Neibelungen » Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:40 pm

Thinking about the above bit and Gregory's bit about e-bay, it might be worth making a few extra notes that might be of interest.

Firstly, E-bay is not an auction. It's actually an auction style selling system and therefore does fall within the Sale of Goods act. No acceptance of offer is made until deadline falls, but because you have made an offer it's legally binding until superceeded by another offer, or can be shown to be an error. When a higher offer is received your bid is notified of rejection. There is no counter-offer unlike barter to reject your offer.

That said, when you buy from there from an individual you have very little rights. It is still caveat-emptor to some degree. Your limited within what's placed in the description of the item, so faults and condition outlined are deemed to have been brought to your attention. You can still claim if there are other faults or differences between the item and what you received.

It gets different when you buy from an online shop through ebay. Then you have full Sale of Goods rights. The same when you purchase from a business subject to the faults/condition outlined in the sale.

B2B purchases are limited to the T&C outlined in the item.

The question of postage fee's on ebay is actually down to the individual. Ebay frowns on excessive postage charges, but it's not against their rules. If it's large you have the freedom not to choose to offer a price in the bid.
From an individual sale it's not clear whether you have the right to choose the level of postage insurance. It can be argued that by choosing a lesser level you've waived your right. However you could make a claim on non-delivery and ask for a refund as I would guess most SCC would feel actual delivery was still the responsibility of the seller untill the goods are in your hands.

Paypal does take a dim view of surcharges for adding charges for paypal fees though. And this you can report.

Online shop and business to individual purchases are pretty much the same as any kind of normal selling. Seller is responsible for delivery. You can return within 7 days for no reason (as part of the distance selling laws). (though care needs to be made with downloaded type purchases/software). 6 months onus is on seller to prove no fault. Return postage costs is actually the responsibility of the seller, but check with them on standard required . Original packaging on return items is irrelevant, though some care in packaging is required still on your part. No requirement for reciept, not required to accept credit note or repair etc.

B2B . Your tied by the conditions outlined in the sale unless can be deemed unfair contract.

VAT. often a thorny issue, but legally unless it states VAT not included in the sale, it shouldn't be added on afterwards. if it does say that, then it's fair.

Most of the thing about large postage prices is that e-bay fees are based on the selling price, not the total including postage. Hence it reduces the sellers fee. It also effectively starts the price higher than appears. If it's listed to begin with your deemed to have accepted it. If not you might have grounds to back out, but your responsibility is to ask what the postage cost is before hand or arrange for postage/collection yourself. Again there are differences between individual sales and business sales.

At the end of the day, it's up to you to read the item and determine what it's worth to bid.



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Drachelis
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Postby Drachelis » Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:06 pm

Given the amount of time Debs spends packing an item she doesn't charge for her time just postage costs and materials used


Quite - for example - one heavy lined houppelande packed in tissue paper and in an appropriately robust box - next day delivery - £17.50 -£20.00 plus box £5 ( for a size that will take a big garment) cost of garment £250 - I charge 10% post and packing - seems pretty fair to me. That is not counting the hour it takes me to pack, drive to the post office and back and petrol.

Folk look at the cost on the parcel and forget all the other bits that fall under Post and Packing - thats why my invoices stae it that way - packing costs too.

The way to get round it is to pick up your orders from the trader at an event ( given that there is an event - I am posting out garments that should have been picked up at Berkley free of charge).

Cherry
Shadowlight Designs[/quote]



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Postby Nigel » Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:04 pm

We were once asked for a breakdown of the charge

aS IT SEEMED EXCESSIVE TO THE CUSTOMER


There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

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Postby janes-wardrobe » Fri Sep 14, 2007 8:59 pm

"It's also a case that within the first 6 months of purchase, faults are deemed to automatically exist and the onus is on the seller to prove otherwise."

I'm intrigued - is this UK law or European law?

Just having taken a table saw back to the retailer less than two months old and only used three times to be told it has to go back to the manufacturer for thm to decide whether or not they will honour the guarantee.

I am in France now and things do seem to be verydifferent here - I know in the UK there would have been no question - replacement or money back but here my options were leave it with us to send to the manufacturer or take it home burnt out and totally unusable...


currently available for costume and corset commissions mail me on janes.wardrobe@gmail.com
http://janes-wardrobe.com/ - bientôt en français


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