Quick question regarding pitch fee's, refunds etc

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Quick question regarding pitch fee's, refunds etc

Postby Martin » Sat Oct 26, 2013 7:35 pm

As a trader I am fully aware that if I book and pay for a pitch I only have actually booked an area of space and that my pitch fee is the organizoers to use as they see fit ( i didnt in the past but I kinda accept it now :) ) but if I book a pitch, am unable to attend due to a serious accident, physically not able, and Im refused a pitch fee refund as its only 5 days to the show, do I still have a claim on the ground I paid for ? Suzie was going to do it but on Monday she had a serious fall from the back of our van resulting in concussion, bruises and sprains, she's recovered a lot but is no way fit to drive at all. A friend offered to print out posters and flyers to put on a table where our paid for so I spent ages designing it, I have had several emails today ( and no orders which we expected maybe a few) asking why we weren't at the market. Ive been told that my pitch was used and that there was a poster on a wall about us, I wasnt going to bother small claims of contacting my insurers but Ive been messed around now once to often, so, the question is, if Ive paid for the space and I contacted the organisor saying I intended to have a table with flyers and posters advertising our business and explaining our predicament etc should that have been done ? or as I wasnt allowed to use the pitch I paid for in that way should I be allowed a refund if he told others to use it ?
Last edited by Martin on Sat Oct 26, 2013 7:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Quick question regarding pitch fee's, refunds etc

Postby acecat999 » Sat Oct 26, 2013 7:40 pm

when he refused your refund
was it left in case so you could have sent a substitute stall?

(what would happen if you turned up tomorrow morning in a van with your wares )


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Re: Quick question regarding pitch fee's, refunds etc

Postby Martin » Sat Oct 26, 2013 7:42 pm

we were told that we could sell it to another trader


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Re: Quick question regarding pitch fee's, refunds etc

Postby The Iron Dwarf » Sat Oct 26, 2013 10:23 pm

I would think it unlikely, mostly I think that 30 days notice would be reasonably unless it stated something different in the T and C, cant you claim on your insurance for loss of earnings due to the accidents?

dont know how it affects things if someone else was using your space there or the fact that there was posters of yours there, they could cancel out maybe



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Re: Quick question regarding pitch fee's, refunds etc

Postby Martin » Sun Oct 27, 2013 9:24 am

Whats unlikely Dave ? Understand I was to late for a refund, though in the past I have refunded people 24 hours before a course, except their deposit, if there is a valid reason, I completely understand that others dont, thats why Im not a successful business man :) BUT I had paid for the pitch and decided to use it to advertise my website with flyers etc, as I paid for it thats my "area of ground", I was going to let it go, but his response has made me decide to pursue it through my insurers legal bods tomorrow, its not a huge sum but i am a strong believer in principle and helping each other.
""""Hi Martin,
We managed to relocate another trader in your block to a spare pitch on row O, so felt it easier to truncate your row to then widen the access pathways between trading blocks.
Your notice, plus your flyers were relocated to the entrance paying point, were ALL our customer notices are positioned. THIS IS WHERE ALL INFORMATION about the show has always been put traditionally, and so it gets to ALL our customers, not just the specfic ones looking for a particular trader. This means that 100% of our visitors get to see the notices - giving anyone a far better hit rate on getting their particular message across.
I spoke to Mike from SJ's about your request, and we discussed the best options. AS THERE HAS NOT BEEN A PUBLISHED PLAN before the show - how exactly did your 15 e-mailers know where to find you in the show anyway?
I totally understand you being upset about not being able to attend the show, and me not being financially able to refund your pitch.
If you want to trade at our next fair in April, then we can discuss a possible discount, if not, then I wish you all the best, and I'm sorry that you feel aggrieved at the current resolution to your problem.
Best regards""""""
name removed obviously, a poster on a wall isnt worth the cost of the pitch fee IMHO, that I had actually paid for, I remember in the past griping about pitch fees used for advertising, I was told the pitch fee is only the ground space your paying for, I paid for it, arranged posters / flyer to go on my table, I emailed the organisor in question and explained thats what I wanted to do with my bit of ground, anyway, I'll see what I can do. As for the next market, I will be doing zero shows with that person in future as the last few have been laughable anyway


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Re: Quick question regarding pitch fee's, refunds etc

Postby The Iron Dwarf » Sun Oct 27, 2013 9:19 pm

martin,
why dont you write your own terms and conditions for booking events if you dont agree with organizers terms.
I have actually done this in the past for sci fi and fantasy cons because what I was taking to the event was a bit different, I set out what I could provide and what I needed clearly and left a space for organizers to add other conditions, they could then accept / decline / accept with additional conditions, every one I sent it to accepted as is without changes.

you could do the same and use it instead of the booking forms, then you will have the terms YOU WANT and if required you will have the law on your side as far as the contract is concerned, at the moment it is up to you which shows you book depending on the terms suiting you but with your own T + C you could book shows that accept your terms.



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Re: Quick question regarding pitch fee's, refunds etc

Postby The Iron Dwarf » Sun Oct 27, 2013 9:54 pm

The Iron Dwarf wrote:I would think it unlikely, mostly I think that 30 days notice would be reasonably unless it stated something different in the T and C, cant you claim on your insurance for loss of earnings due to the accidents?

dont know how it affects things if someone else was using your space there or the fact that there was posters of yours there, they could cancel out maybe


not on anyones side but just trying to get some of this straighter for everyone.


if the T and C said 30 days for a cancellation

suzie had her accident on the monday but you stated above you cancelled giving 5 days notice for an event starting on the friday, so if you contacted paste on the monday that was 4 days which I recon is a little less than 30 days so legally you probably cant get anything there and if it was tuesday or wednesday you contacted paste that is even less than the 5 days stated in this thread.

I dont know about the poster / flyers pitch space issue but it may not help that before that you had a rant and were slagging off paste and calling them "unprofessional" because they did not give you a refund when you signed a booking form stating 30 days notice and you stated there you cancelled on the tuesday not the monday.

I think that if someone had turned up on your behalf space would have been made but I am nothing to do with the organizes, just someone who is trying to get arguments ended here.

if you have insurance to cover accident and illnesses and loss of earnings that would certainly be something to look into

if you think you have a claim for anything else then try it

I did see the poster at face level where people go in just before the table where visitors pay.



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Re: Quick question regarding pitch fee's, refunds etc

Postby Martin » Sun Oct 27, 2013 11:14 pm

Dave, lack of refund wasn't a problem, unfortunate but each person runs their business as they see fit, fair enough,BUT the fact I'd paid meant I had use of the ground space, I emailed explaining what I wanted doing on the ground space I paid for, which was to use it for advertising, nowt in any T&C stating what you have to do with the space booked, I wanted a table with flyers and posters explaining the situation etc. thats all there is to it, I have been told in the past that a pitch fee only covers the ground you have booked, no matter how you look at it it its pretty simple, I had use of the ground from the moment the market opened until it closed each day :)
,


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Re: Quick question regarding pitch fee's, refunds etc

Postby The Iron Dwarf » Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:32 am

as I said I dont know about the use of space but your earlier rant an facebook was about not giving you a refund.
as far as I know there is nothing about the use of the space in the T and C but slagging them off and telling people not to go and you will never go to another of their shows over the refund would not help, which you did and IIRC it was on thursday you did that.
when you write your own terms and conditions you of course can specify what happens in this situation at events that agree to your terms



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Re: Quick question regarding pitch fee's, refunds etc

Postby Martin » Mon Oct 28, 2013 10:01 am

The rant was about refusing the refund and not allowing me the use of the space as I saw fit :0 and Dave, Im fully aware I wont be doing any of their shows in future :) and Im not telling people not to go either , though if Im asked my opinion about the organisor or his shows I wont be backward in coming forward :)


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Re: Quick question regarding pitch fee's, refunds etc

Postby Tod » Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:20 pm

It's fair to say a lot of people know what market you are talking about, what happened to Suzie and that you told the event manager you wouldn't be going. Also a lot of people have seen your posts on Facebook.
Because of the short notice you wouldn't get refund. The event manager can use any unused space as they want to, if you had suddenly turned up I'm sure he would have found you space. But as he knew weren't going to be there he used the space as best he could. I would do the same. There was a sign that was easy to see saying you weren't going to be there.
IMO opinion you will waste a whole lot of time and energy, get stressed, and do your reputation no good chasing this. I also think this is not the place to discuse your possible legal actions against a market manager who a lot of us have a huge amount of respect for. Bearing in mind some of us are not allowed to trade at the other undercover heated (important when you sell leather goods) market.
I had a good market and will be going back.



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Re: Quick question regarding pitch fee's, refunds etc

Postby Martin » Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:00 am

Tod, I asked before what the pitch fee is used for in a previous rant about this persons ability to put a show on, when I was directly misled or lied to if you will, I was then told by other organizers only the space / pitch area NOT advertising, not paying for infrastructure etc JUST the ground space, if its only the space then surely I can use it to advertise with as Ive paid for the space or has that changed now ? I arent pursuing it as I cant be arsed in the long run BUT I will air my grievances and whether the person is well respected he certainly isnt by me, where else is a good place to air a grievance about how a market organisor acts than on a traders discussion page ?? how come, when anything bad is said about anyone its best not to air it generally ? also, as I say, I paid for the space for 2 days, rented it if you will, and if I wanted posters and flyers there that's my prerogative , glad you had a good fair but most didn't but that's neither here nor there though


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Re: Quick question regarding pitch fee's, refunds etc

Postby Martin » Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:15 am

Incidentally Tod, you would be surprised how many people on my FB page didn't know who I was referring to and which market I meant, there have been a fair few messages to me asking, and Ive had to clarify a few times who and what market it was


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Re: Quick question regarding pitch fee's, refunds etc

Postby Tod » Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:45 am

I don't know and don't really want to know what communication you had with the event mananger. I can only say what I think based on what you have written. I would add that on here over the years the moderators including me have deleted off and removed threads that have been negative towards traders, in this case it is very specific as it only involves you and only you and the event manager know the facts. With that in mind I think and I'll discuss this with the other mods that this is not the place to discuss this. We are aware that something can be written and then refered back to and used, not good. Also the readers only see one side of the story - as in this case and there is no response.
I know there are plenty of traders who have issues with issues with various market managers, some have gone on for years, some are specific to one trader. Either way by putting up threads/posts/comments the forum could be seen to be biased and the event managers could then have a case against the forum, again not good.
A person could also be liable if the event manger decided to take action against them for putting up comments that lead to legal action or the threat of, there is also the fact that all the other event managers are going to read the thread and may make the decision they don't want you as you are seen by them as a trouble maker, whether true or not.
All in all IMO I can see no good in this and that is as an event manager, trader, moderator and individual.



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Re: Quick question regarding pitch fee's, refunds etc

Postby Martin » Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:07 am

Tod, Suzie here, the organisor was notified 5 days prior to the event that we wouldn't be attending and that another trader had offered to print flyers and posters explaining our absence and my accident and place them on our pitch space that we had paid for, Martin has not named anyone on here, he has on his Facebook page yes, but not on here, instead of telling Martin why he's wrong, could you simply answer the question he asked ? why were we not able to put a table on our paid for pitch ? I don't get involved in this sort of thing normally as I think Martin can go off a little, but in this situation why is he wrong ? had the organisor replied saying he wouldnt let us do the table we would have stopped the other trader printing flyers and posters. As for people coming back in the future and rereading this thread how can it be detrimental to anyone ? I feel we were very shoddily dealt with as well, its not just Martin who is angry and a little upset. and as you say you dont know about what transpired between us and the organisor how can you then lay all the blame on Martin for making a fuss, if you dont know all the pertinent facts maybe you should reserve judgment ? the locking of this thread would demostrate to me why less and less people use the forum, I have been on here in months, I just wanted to know why Martin was unhappy with your comment and I can see why.
A person could also be liable if the event manger decided to take action against them for putting up comments that lead to legal action or the threat of, there is also the fact that all the other event managers are going to read the thread and may make the decision they don't want you as you are seen by them as a trouble maker, whether true or not.
he is welcome to take any and all action he see's fit, we have said nothing on here or on Facebook that we're ashamed of and wouldnt say in a court of law if he decided to try and sue us, incidentally, you infer that its one sided as the other person hasn't responded, they are welcome and we know they read this forum though I doubt they will and as for another organizer thinking Martin is a trouble maker etc, well, I have to agree, if Martin is unhappy about something he will talk to the person directly, as he did in this case and he asked what other traders though, I simply cant see how thats wrong.


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Re: Quick question regarding pitch fee's, refunds etc

Postby Annie the Arrow » Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:14 am

Erm, to be honest Tod I am a bit stunned by your response, the event manager is a member of this forum and could respond it he wanted to, I also fail to see how this forum can be seen to be biased, its hardly Martins fault that the event manager has failed to respond. Annie


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Re: Quick question regarding pitch fee's, refunds etc

Postby Tod » Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:19 am

Suzie/Martin I'm not going to get ito any more detail on this, I offered my opinion on what I had read based on my experiences. As you know I offered to help out so have no axe to grind other than being a moderator here. If I were in the event managers place I would not reply to this thread.
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Re: Quick question regarding pitch fee's, refunds etc

Postby Martin » Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:29 am

Tod, your opinion was that I was wrong, we disagree and posted because we that we disagree where is the harm in that, that was Suzies first post on here in all the years Ive been using the forum, thats how strongly we feel, our chances of recouping any losses at the market were ruined by the fact I wasnt allowed to place a table with our flyers on, in our pitch that is why we are so angry, we understand that the margins for putting shows on are slight but how would they have been affected by allowing us to put a table on our paid for pitch, its OK saying Im a trouble maker, causing a fuss but IMHO there is nothing wrong with that, i feel we were shoddily dealt with, we have 5 more shows then nothing, the fair was one of the last opportunity's we had to make money to see us through Jan and Feb until the season starts, when people mess about with our livelihood we get upset, why isnt the person responding ? trying to defend their actions, people dont always say nothing because its noble or more mature, sometimes they dont because they are wrong.


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Re: Quick question regarding pitch fee's, refunds etc

Postby Tod » Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:47 am

I can't say why, I just know I wouldn't reply as I feel it would be unprofessional, but that's just my opinion. As I said you can ring me if you like.
The only thing I would add is that I think more people saw the sign that was put up than any that would have been placed on a table.



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Re: Quick question regarding pitch fee's, refunds etc

Postby Martin » Tue Oct 29, 2013 12:03 pm

Tod, they didnt, we had many emails asking why we werent there, not one of them saw the poster, lots of people commented on FB they didnt see a poster anywhere, we are struggling to stay in business at the mo, because of injuries and cancelled shows we really are teetering on the edge, loads of stock but unable to go away to sell it that is why we are so angry, had we been told 4 days prior to the show we would have tried something else but we werent told we couldnt do it when we emailed the organisor


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Re: Quick question regarding pitch fee's, refunds etc

Postby houseoffreyja » Tue Oct 29, 2013 12:24 pm

Traders don't often complain if an event was badly organised, they usually just walk away and not do that particular event again.
However, I think one of the problems here is one of trust. As a trader, I now realise that I can expect very little for my pitch fee, a piece of grass or a space on the ground sometimes seems to be the most we can hope for, but I have to trust the organiser to keep their word. If a trader wants to use their pitch solely, for advertising and has informed the organiser, then it seems to me, that is up to the trader.
As Martin has said, for many of us, this is our only income. It is a difficult way of making a living. It has advantages to working in the "real" world, independence, good friends,etc, but it is hard work and we need all the help we can get. Martin effectively paid for an advertising space and then didn't get it. Should he just "shut up and put up" like we usually do or just occasionally, shouldn't traders tell others what has happened to them?
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Re: Quick question regarding pitch fee's, refunds etc

Postby Annie the Arrow » Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:14 pm

Very very well put Elaine


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Re: Quick question regarding pitch fee's, refunds etc

Postby Martin » Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:26 pm

yup, very well put Elaine and thanks, I was starting to think I was wrong but I know Im not, its all been building up TBH, this year the same person told me he had seen the signs for a market he was running, directions to the market etc, then, during the event, when no signs we're put up and the MOP's didnt come to the market area it turns out the printer hadnt even done them, yet both myself and Suzie were told he had actually seen them , and by making a fuss I feel that others may be more aware that whats said and what to expect are 2 totally different kettle of fish in some cases


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Re: Quick question regarding pitch fee's, refunds etc

Postby Tod » Tue Oct 29, 2013 2:16 pm

I'm still not sure if this is the place to put negative comments. Not so long ago we had the TORM V NLHF row and then it came up every time the markets were getting close. The result was that the moderators had to go on "watch". That got all very heated with solicitors getting involved. We decided we didn't want the forum dragged in. At every market there are unhappy people, it doesn't mattter which market it is. It either too hot, too cold, stands were in the wrong places, too much light, not enough, food traders were no good, road signs were wrong or even removed, traders are banned from one market while others aren't, entrance fees are too high, the queues were too long, it was too muddy, the car park was far away. It's almost endless. The trouble is these views are only those of the person who writes them. In this case Martin has a point, it doesn't matter whether he is right or not it is his point and he is entitled to it. That doesn't mean it is right to put it on a small (when compared to FB) forum where an individual (Cal) can be held accountable for what is written - whether than is true or not I'm not 100% sure but certainly over the years that has what has been indicated and it's better to be safe than sorry.

Being a sole trader is really difficult but has lots of advantages. Maybe the biggest issue is that we are reliant on our takings to keep a roof over our heads. I'm lucky I have a day job and I trade, but it does mean my self certificate for tax is a bit more complicated (and it is well known I have no time for people who trade and aren't registered). When a market, and it doesn't matter which one has negative comments it will have a knock on effect and that effects those of us who have had no issues and in my case have had a good week end. From my point of view the venue for the ILHF is better than the old one and after looking at the plans I can see that out of the three venues used over this month and next it will be the best. But it does need to appeal to the public. I've traded at the NEC and thats not all it made up to be, I've also traded in cattle sheds and been looked after by the event manager better than at national venues. I look at the long game and don't commit to more than a year ahead. I intend to try out the market at Godmanchester, if its good I'll go again (assuming it's not a one off), if not and the forward plan isn't good I won't. What I would do is put my opinion to the event manager if it were in the negative (if asked) and not post it here.

I've run big shows, the largest having a public footfall of over 80,000 over two days. Obviously I had a big team as well. Most of the traders I never met unless there was problem. In one case I closed down a food trader who had paid thousands to have burger stalls all over the showground. My estimate was that he lost tens of thousands and had to throw away a lot of food, needless to say I was not popular and had other food traders come to the site office and question my decision as the original vender had passed the word around. Now in that case he was wrong and I was right but that's not how the other traders saw it until I explained (I was already really busy and didn't need them taking up my time) he had part cooked food at floor level he was reheating and I'd taken pictures. In Martin's case he has a case which he can take up with the event manager. It's not a simple case as it was in the example I gave but it is between the event manager and Martin. The rest of us can only read/listen to one side and that is hardly fair. As I said I wouldn't discuss it here or on FB or any other medium that the public have access to, but I would reply privately.

In the mean time we are in a difficult period, people are just not traveling as much as they did, I could see that by the number of email orders I came back to, they also aren't spending so much on whim buys or at least that's what I think. The age of re-enactors is in my opinion getting older so a lot of them already have almsot every item they need (I'm not sure about want!). With more markets there are more costs to us traders as we have to pay out for more pitch fees and petrol etc to cover the same number of customers as they have more choice about where to go. Life would be so much easier if everything was in one place :lol: The market managers will do their best to sell their market to the public although I'm not sure what they can do when the venue is out of their hands, you can't warm up a great big field no more than you can move a market in the north to a venue in the south. The bottom line is the customer has to be able to buy what they want and do it in surroundings that aren't too bad - we've all got round muddy fields at one time or another. I just hope the present climate doesn't effect too many traders and in Martin's case people fill their families/friends Xmas stockings with jerky - any one wanting know which flavour I like let me know :wink:




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