How do you define a trader?

For traders and related people to share

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
Shadowcat
Post Centurion
Posts: 597
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 9:03 am
Location: London

How do you define a trader?

Postby Shadowcat » Mon Mar 27, 2006 2:13 pm

This is relevant to the "How Much?" thread.

I would not call myself a trader, as I don't go to markets, or sell ready made goods. I custom make and sell to people who ask me to. I onluy advertise via my web site, and nowhere else. A lot of my customers come via the Internet, or word of mouth, or are "old" customers.

For the purposes of the Living History forum only, would you call that "trading"?

S.



User avatar
Drachelis
Posts: 288
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 11:29 am
Location: SW Wales
Contact:

Postby Drachelis » Mon Mar 27, 2006 2:56 pm

I would define a trader as one offering goods and/or a service for recompense

My personal interpretation is that, whether purely bespoke or not, if goods or services change hands for money then a trade has been made. I suppose it is equally valid to say that a trade is also made when exchanging goods and/or services for other goods or services as in the barter system.


Those who make a trade are therefore traders.

Some of us trade completely on bespoke orders and others trade completely by ofering the finished article for sale. others such as myself do both - off the peg as wsell as making to order.

Well thats just my view what does everyone else think?



Cheryl
Shadowlight Designs



User avatar
sally
Post Knight
Posts: 1805
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 2:31 pm
Location: Sunny Wales
Contact:

Postby sally » Mon Mar 27, 2006 3:39 pm

Drachelis wrote:I would define a trader as one offering goods and/or a service for recompense


I would agree with that. If you only made costume 'as a favour' for friends, that might make you a costumer but not a trader. The second money changes hands, even if its only once or twice a year you are a trader. I'm a teeny tiny trader, in the sense that my turnover is so small that the taxman might make a whole extra £50 off me this year if he's lucky, but I'm still trading, and when I'm working on stock or standing behind my table I think of myself as a trader.



User avatar
Neibelungen
Post Centurion
Posts: 522
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2005 8:56 pm
Location: Leeds
Contact:

Postby Neibelungen » Mon Mar 27, 2006 4:32 pm

Both Sally and Drachelis are right. Anybody who makes or sell goods in return for some form of recompense is a trader.

I think the taxman defines it almost exactly the same. Even if you only go to 2 car-boot sales in a year, it consideres that to be a business. So basically our definition of a trader shoulds be something along the lines of;

Somebody who makes or sell goods to others with a view to making a profit or a living.

I think that would exclude those who do it simply for pleasure, a favour or purely at cost. Think that would also remove those not-for-profit organizations who simply try to cover costs.

Tecnically it's should even include them, as anything that involves a contract of sale, even unspoken, is trading and has to fall within the law.

Ignorance might be bliss, but it doesn't make you innocent :shock:


Personally, since this is just a conversation forum, I'd say it's anybody who's interested.



agesofelegance
Posts: 72
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2005 9:34 pm
Location: Leeds
Contact:

Postby agesofelegance » Mon Mar 27, 2006 4:58 pm

I agree if you sell anything you are a trader as you trade in goods. and are therefore a business
Sally are you sure he'll get that much make sure that are deducting everythign you are eligible for

Dawn



User avatar
Tuppence
Post Knight
Posts: 1397
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2005 6:20 pm
Location: chaos-world, west yorks
Contact:

Postby Tuppence » Mon Mar 27, 2006 5:01 pm

But there are two senses of the word.

In the modern real-world sense, if you trade, then you're a trader (as has been stated above). I>e if you exchange goods/services for money or other goods /services, then you're trading.

But there's also a re-enactment sense, which refers to the bunch of people who stand on stalls on traders rows and at markets and fayres. And that's completely different.

So inother words, yes you're a trader in the first sense, but no you're not in the second.

Technically I'm in both, though don't really consider myself as a trader in the re-enactment sense of the word, and I see others who do the odd couple of shows a year (eg jill knights) the same way.

so maybe in the re-enactment sense of the world it only applies to those who go to a number of events (as traders) spread throughout the year?


"What a lovely hat! But may I make one teensy suggestion? If it blows off, don't chase it."
Miss Piggy
RIP Edward the avatar cat.

User avatar
Shadowcat
Post Centurion
Posts: 597
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 9:03 am
Location: London

Postby Shadowcat » Mon Mar 27, 2006 5:05 pm

I am registered for tax purposes as a costume maker, so that isn't the question. I haven't done favours for people for a very long time!!

I think I agree with most of what is written above. I am not a trader in the re-enactment sense, but I am a trader in that I exchange what I make for money.

(I just don't want to be left out if a traders' forum happens!)

S.



User avatar
sally
Post Knight
Posts: 1805
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 2:31 pm
Location: Sunny Wales
Contact:

Postby sally » Mon Mar 27, 2006 5:54 pm

agesofelegance wrote:Sally are you sure he'll get that much make sure that are deducting everythign you are eligible for

Dawn


'fraid so, but its all my fault for not realising there were some things I should have kept receipts for! Will be much more clued up next year, thanks to the 'Pete the Pong school of business management'. Treating it all as a learning curve at the moment :)

Like the idea of a traders forum too. 8)



User avatar
gregory23b
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2923
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:46 pm
Location: Gyppeswyk, Suffolk

Postby gregory23b » Mon Mar 27, 2006 6:16 pm

Trader seems to have more romantic connotations, ie at a stall, in a tent, it merely face to face retail. Trading is merely transactions for payment wherever.

I sell (attempt to) or market at markets as much as I do commissioned work, if I didn't do stands/fairs etc I would still call myself a trader if only in the literal sense. In respects to a "traders'" forum I would include anyone who makes and sells, buys and sells at fairs/markets or not as long as they are involved in the process of making or selling historical items (dare we say services too?) then IMHO they are welcome.


middle english dictionary

Isabela on G23b "...somehow more approachable in real life"

http://medievalcolours.blogspot.com

"I know my place." Alice the Huswyf

User avatar
Neibelungen
Post Centurion
Posts: 522
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2005 8:56 pm
Location: Leeds
Contact:

Postby Neibelungen » Mon Mar 27, 2006 6:19 pm

I don't think there's any difference between trading at a market and trading on some kind of merchant's row. Your still selling something to somebody related to history.

If you make or sell to re-enactors in some manner then your a trader. And re-enactor encompases anything vaguely historical, whether it's dance-groups, theatre, living history, museums or just those weird individuals who want to dress up.

Basically I'd make it open to anybody who makes or sells things vaguely historical to clients who are vaguely historical. Think that should cover just about everybody.

Or to put it another way... anybody who's interested in reading the topics.



User avatar
Shadowcat
Post Centurion
Posts: 597
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 9:03 am
Location: London

Postby Shadowcat » Mon Mar 27, 2006 6:24 pm

Neibelungen wrote:Basically I'd make it open to anybody who makes or sells things vaguely historical to clients who are vaguely historical. Think that should cover just about everybody.

Or to put it another way... anybody who's interested in reading the topics.


Thanks Andrew, that's just about summed up me perfectly :D .

S.



User avatar
Tuppence
Post Knight
Posts: 1397
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2005 6:20 pm
Location: chaos-world, west yorks
Contact:

Postby Tuppence » Mon Mar 27, 2006 11:06 pm

In the sense of a trader's forum on here (which is entirely up to cal, so it's him you need to ask - by pm or e-mail, and I'm sure he'll respond when he gets chance), then it'd be open to everybody, trader or not (in whatever sense you happen to mean).

If for no other reason than it'd be far too much of a hassle to set up limited access - and who'd decide who should have access anyway??

In terms of selling stuff to people, anybody who sells anything would have encountered similar problems and idiots, as well as similar high points and really nice people, so would have stuff to discuss.

But as I said, it would be unlikely to be 'traders only', so much as 'of interest primarily to traders'. Which is of course entirely different.

Debbie


"What a lovely hat! But may I make one teensy suggestion? If it blows off, don't chase it."

Miss Piggy

RIP Edward the avatar cat.

User avatar
Pete the Pong
Posts: 375
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2005 3:27 pm
Location: An old market town in Norfolk
Contact:

Postby Pete the Pong » Tue Mar 28, 2006 12:41 am

Hi there everybody!
Start with the "legal" definition.
Anyone who sells anything to anyone else (even at a loss) is "trading", and in the eyes of the law any profit made should be declared on your tax return. Simple as that!
In re-enactment terms you sort of tip over when you stop simply helping out friends, and you start setting up a stall. Which is a grey area.
In practice you'll find that most of the best known "Historic Traders" have other business sidelines to keep them going during the winter months. (Apart probably from the costumiers who have to keep on sewing like crazy to meet the deadline of Sprimg)
You'll find that most of the traders on Traders Row are pretty professional about their work, and are members of the NMTF. (National Market Traders Federation). You don't have to be a member to trade, (we are NOT an exclusive Trades Onion) but for most events it's essential to be well insured, and your NMTF membership will cover that.
And being an NMTF member doesn't mean that your sole source of income has to be from Historic evnts!
Does that make sense?????


Image
Yes -I firmly believe in the healing power of herbal remedies.
So much so that I insist on taking at least three or more pints of the Sacred Malted Medicine each and every night.

User avatar
House of De Clifford
Posts: 390
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2005 7:35 pm
Location: Generally on a motorway in the van!!!!
Contact:

Postby House of De Clifford » Tue Mar 28, 2006 8:55 am

Hi Shadowcat, i suppose my take on it is would you want to be called a trader ?? Its rather nice being a trader really. Have been one for ummmm seven years now i think. Wouldnt want to be doing anything else. If you make goods then sell them then i do think you should become a trader shadowcat. Apart from enything else, there is some great bartering to be done between traders ! :lol:
Peter, Been thinking about a traders guild that was mentioned on here. i think it would be a great idea. For one, as guild members, we could set up a system for making sure all members get informed about all the shows, networking i suppose. All guild members would have to be insured etc: and could be reccomended to people looking for a certain type of demo at shows etc. Would also help organisers to find what they need or maybe for block bookings for traders.
There are many good reasons for running a traders guild and i think Shadowcat may well be a valued member if she ever wanted to go trader !


House of De Clifford
Suppliers of ethical fur and hides to Re- enactment, Film, Tv and Theatre.
http://www.houseofdeclifford.co.uk

User avatar
Shadowcat
Post Centurion
Posts: 597
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 9:03 am
Location: London

Postby Shadowcat » Tue Mar 28, 2006 9:19 am

I think I am too old to change my ways now. I only make clothes that have been ordered, and have as much work with that as I want. I would not have time to make anything to sell on spec. as it were. I'd love to be a trader if only to meet all you lovely people at events, but I shall just have to try and do that as an MOP. (As I don't drive, it can be difficult to get to some places - the Oyster Faire at Colchester is always good, as I can get there by train.)

I will introduce myself if anyone from here is there in June.

S.



User avatar
House of De Clifford
Posts: 390
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2005 7:35 pm
Location: Generally on a motorway in the van!!!!
Contact:

Postby House of De Clifford » Tue Mar 28, 2006 9:38 am

Hi Shadowcat,we will be there ! Come and find us for a nice hot cup of tea and a biscuit ! Just ask for Dave and Miranda.
Dave.


House of De Clifford
Suppliers of ethical fur and hides to Re- enactment, Film, Tv and Theatre.
http://www.houseofdeclifford.co.uk

User avatar
Drachelis
Posts: 288
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 11:29 am
Location: SW Wales
Contact:

Postby Drachelis » Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:49 am

this thread might be better over on the traders forum too -

Cheryl
Shadowlight Designs



agesofelegance
Posts: 72
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2005 9:34 pm
Location: Leeds
Contact:

Postby agesofelegance » Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:54 am

as well as the copyright and terms and conditions ones i would think



User avatar
PaulMurphy
Posts: 200
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 8:40 am
Location: Cambridgeshire
Contact:

Postby PaulMurphy » Tue Mar 28, 2006 11:38 am

Moved to the Traders forum as requested.


Paul Murphy
Tournée & The Vikings
______________________________________

User avatar
cal
Site Admin
Posts: 265
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2005 1:55 pm

Postby cal » Tue Mar 28, 2006 1:03 pm

Sounds like a trader to me...

Again I'm not going to get too hung up about the use of this forum and strict definitions of traders.

I suppose we don't really want lots of individual items, since they really belong on the buy and sell.

But even sellers of single items should feel free to discuss things here.


Cal Tewkesbury - webmaster

User avatar
Tuppence
Post Knight
Posts: 1397
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2005 6:20 pm
Location: chaos-world, west yorks
Contact:

Postby Tuppence » Tue Mar 28, 2006 1:37 pm

Trader seems to have more romantic connotations


But the opposite, too. Quite a lot of people I've met over the years have a very low view of traders in general (seeing them as something separate to a shop, for example, or even a beer tent).
The people in that category seem to see traders in general as one step down from fagin (only bothered about the cash - will tell you anything just to get that sale, etc, etc).

Now that's not my opinion, even though there are undoubtedly traders like that out there (seen one or two in action), they aren't likely to last long as word get round fast.
But there are those (a sizable number) who see all "traders" in that light - hence my preference for not being known as a "trader".

That said, I am in the NMTF, even if I can count the markets I do in a year on one hand.

Debbie


"What a lovely hat! But may I make one teensy suggestion? If it blows off, don't chase it."

Miss Piggy

RIP Edward the avatar cat.

User avatar
Gerald ye Herald
Posts: 201
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 11:31 pm
Location: At the end of my Horn
Contact:

Postby Gerald ye Herald » Tue Mar 28, 2006 7:29 pm

How would you define working from home creating items and selling to all
and sundry?

As for P the P comments re profit I understood if you did not exceed
a certain amount say £30,000 just for an example, you had no need to
register??.

All advice gratefully recieved.


Preserving the Art of Medieval Heraldics
And Chivalry
Live for today, dream of tomorrow, learn from yesterday!.
http://armisheraldics.me.uk/1.html
http://gyh.fotopic.net
http://ah.fotopic.net

agesofelegance
Posts: 72
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2005 9:34 pm
Location: Leeds
Contact:

Postby agesofelegance » Tue Mar 28, 2006 8:08 pm

if you sell stuff you need to declare it in terms of tax and NI

The high amount is only for VAT purposes and that is now thankfully over £50K

however loads of stuff is tax deductible and if you work form home that includes a good portion of the homestead bills.
I don't necessarily call myself a trader as i rarely do markets (I call them shows) but I do run a business and anyone selling to anyone else also does and is bound by business laws or you can get into big trouble
Dawn


Tailors to history
www.agesofelegance.co.uk

User avatar
Neibelungen
Post Centurion
Posts: 522
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2005 8:56 pm
Location: Leeds
Contact:

Postby Neibelungen » Tue Mar 28, 2006 9:15 pm

Probably should move this to a new topic, as it's really looking at the whole tax. NI, VAT part of being a trader/business.

VAT only hit's in if your do over £45,000 turnover (I think at last count though Budget could have changed) or something like £20,000 plus in a quater.
(Though be advised... the VAT people are worse than the Rozzers if you upset them.. They don't even need to have a search warrent to enter your premises, though they are friendly people if you talk to them


If you only work part-time at this (ie.. your 'real' job earns you more) then your supposed to fill in a sumplementary form to add to your tax return (which is usually the P45 or 60 filled in by the wages department. Actually this is a better position as NI and sick pay don't exist for the self-employed). Although you might get hit by the stardard rate tax on what you earn, there are advantages, as you can deduct the proportion of household expenses in relation to how much you use of your home, so it can often work out better.

NI is the tricky one, and one better speaking to an accoutant, or your wages dept, as they usually learn most of the rules.

Simple rule is to write down everything involved when you work from home. Think about it carefully... you use the light, heating. electricity. your computer, printer , furniture etc. so these are all deductable in proportion.

Think carefully about your car though... technically you'd require business car insurance if you use it too much.

If in doubt.. phone the tax people. they are remarkably helpfull and not actually out to get you. they have lots of leaflets and advice guides for free.

Hope that helps, though I think this theme would merit a whole topic in itself, as everybody has different approaches and ideas of what, how much and how to claim back expenses.

PS. Even a simple in/out spreadsheet fulled in once a month will save you hours filling out a tax return or money paying an accountant to do it for you. (Helps when your brother's one :lol: )



User avatar
Gerald ye Herald
Posts: 201
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 11:31 pm
Location: At the end of my Horn
Contact:

Postby Gerald ye Herald » Wed Mar 29, 2006 12:06 pm

Thanks for the info but we make very little we are not able to throw ourselves into mass production, just the odd item now and then.

We are both pensioners just making enough to cover the ripoffs!!!!!.


Preserving the Art of Medieval Heraldics

And Chivalry

Live for today, dream of tomorrow, learn from yesterday!.

http://armisheraldics.me.uk/1.html

http://gyh.fotopic.net

http://ah.fotopic.net

User avatar
Neibelungen
Post Centurion
Posts: 522
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2005 8:56 pm
Location: Leeds
Contact:

Postby Neibelungen » Wed Mar 29, 2006 1:10 pm

Gerald,

In that case best to keep quiet :wink:

A lot of people work that way, and as long as it's not the major proportion of your income, most taxmen are pretty lenient.and understanding.

Just don't undersell yourself because of that fact though. If your work is of high enough quality, then remember your selling a skill that they don't have, and their time is what it would cost them if they tried to make the same things themselves. Price it accordingly in their terms.

That's the hardest thing to learn.

'How much do I value the quality of my work ?'

I think everybody starts out low, and it takes a while to realise that it's actually good. If people start copying your work, then you've actually reached a level above theirs.



Tuppence made a good point that there's a strange division between the perception of traders making or selling tat for quick bucks and the quality craftsperson selling a skilled service. Unfortunately a lot of us get tarred with the same brush.

While not trying to knock the quality of imported goods (and alot of it is excellent), a lot of it is pure crap. Though daresare there's a few craftpeople making the same too. :shock:

There's room for both (hopefully), though I think a we should be more proud that we have the skills to make our own work, and make more of that fact known. (Hmmm, a case for trying to make the markets ask the traders to label their origin of goods ? )

I guess that's were the perception divide causes the blur. Too many of the cheaper end of makers are selling to try and compete with imported prices, or trying to sell an import cheaper than the rest. They devalue the quality or else are seen as just trying to claw in as much cash as possible for the least effort. It forgets that their probably working harder than the rest of us to try and compete with overseas labour prices.

The other side of it is that traders are seens as being somewhat like paracites, living off other peoples money. I think that's a cultural thing in this country, as you don't find too the same degree on the Continent or the States. Somehow, with the decline of manufacturing and the small shopkeeper, it's made us loose sight that this was a nation of shopkeepers and cottage industries. Ask the crafts council for support, and if your not a contemporary designer, there not interested.

Too many Lauwrence LLewelyn's and MDF and not enough real skills. Or like white bread... the packaging has more taste than the content !!!!



User avatar
Gerald ye Herald
Posts: 201
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 11:31 pm
Location: At the end of my Horn
Contact:

Postby Gerald ye Herald » Wed Mar 29, 2006 3:35 pm

Neibelungen

Thanks for your input much appreciated.

Regards
Gerald


Preserving the Art of Medieval Heraldics

And Chivalry

Live for today, dream of tomorrow, learn from yesterday!.

http://armisheraldics.me.uk/1.html

http://gyh.fotopic.net

http://ah.fotopic.net

User avatar
david smith
Posts: 415
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 1:28 pm
Location: Wellingborough
Contact:

Postby david smith » Wed Mar 29, 2006 5:58 pm

VAT Threshold is at least £55,000 Annual Turnover, it won't have gone down from 2003/4

NI - weekly "stamp" £2 or so payable quarterly, plus 7% of your Taxable Profits up to a maximum of (some figure that I've forgotten which is why I like Tax Calc :lol: )

Best wishes
David

NB The VAT man's powers are historically based - Customs & Revenue preceded the Inland Revenue and the Police! Both VAT and IR are mostly human, and of course take exception to people "taking the p*ss" - that's when your trouble starts.


Image

User avatar
Drachelis
Posts: 288
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 11:29 am
Location: SW Wales
Contact:

Postby Drachelis » Wed Mar 29, 2006 6:09 pm

I think that the importers and cheaper end can provide a good starting point but, I have to say, that often from a costumiers point of view they skimp on materials - for example, I have seen so many houppelandes offered for sale without the amount of fabric in the skirt required I use 8 metres of 60inch fabric to get the fulness in the skirt - I also use 4 -5 metres in a kirtle - when not enough fabric or an inferior fabric is used it just doesn't hang right -

sorry one of my bug bears.


Cheryl
Shadowlight Designs.



User avatar
Pete the Pong
Posts: 375
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2005 3:27 pm
Location: An old market town in Norfolk
Contact:

Postby Pete the Pong » Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:05 pm

david smith wrote:VAT Threshold is at least £55,000 Annual Turnover,.

I recently checked -it currrently stands at £60K as stated in the "Sticky"


Image
Yes -I firmly believe in the healing power of herbal remedies.
So much so that I insist on taking at least three or more pints of the Sacred Malted Medicine each and every night.


Return to “Traders Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests