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Re: How Rude!!!

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 9:53 am
by houseoffreyja
I've had the "tell me exactly how you made it and where you got the fabric, because I want to make one." I tell the non- customer some detail, but always miss out a really important part. Tony tells them to bring the cloak in, next year, to show us. No-one has yet.
If any customer wants to haggle, I happily agree and then haggle upwards. Its amazing how quickly they agree to the original price.

Re: How Rude!!!

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 12:22 pm
by Alan E
I'm a little surprised at the vehemence some people have against those who ask how something is researched or made! It's a question I often ask, as I am interested in the providence and the manufacturing processes.

For clothing, I have made enough of my own (doublet and hose for me, dress for my wife) to know the difficulties and have no problem with paying for well-made products. I still like to know how it is made and what research has gone into it though: I'm sorry if I've ever offended anyone with those questions (especially Nigel, who's nice)!

Re: How Rude!!!

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 1:06 pm
by boblad
I have also been asked how i get a certain feature on my Ironwork and how i make the Powder Flasks and have no problem in telling people if they ask in a polite manner, most if not all do ask in a polite manner. I think the title of the thread is How Rude and how some people can be. In my example i think the people were being rude as i would not have done such a thing myself. But i am always willing to talk to people on how my items are made, in fact on some of my items i have to buy certain items in, leaves etc on the iron work and have been happy to tell people where my supplier is.

Re: How Rude!!!

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 7:56 pm
by KeithFarrell
Alan E wrote:I'm a little surprised at the vehemence some people have against those who ask how something is researched or made! It's a question I often ask, as I am interested in the providence and the manufacturing processes.

For clothing, I have made enough of my own (doublet and hose for me, dress for my wife) to know the difficulties and have no problem with paying for well-made products. I still like to know how it is made and what research has gone into it though: I'm sorry if I've ever offended anyone with those questions (especially Nigel, who's nice)!


I think there is a key difference between this sort of question from someone who is genuinely interested and this sort of question from someone who wants to rip off your work and research so that the person can make it himself/herself. I have done quite a bit of working with maille at shows as living history, and I often receive questions as to how to make the bits and pieces. Usually these questions are about the armour and are posed by members of the public who are interested in what I'm doing but every so often some chancer looks at items for sale, such as for example byzantine boxweave bracelets, and asks me for details on how to make those.

In fact, at one point I was selling a few byzantine boxweave bracelets on eBay, and someone sent me a message about the item to say that she thought the bracelet looked very nice and that she would like to have her boyfriend make one for her, so could I email her a pattern and a set of instructions? Needless to say, I told her no, although I did so very diplomatically!

Re: How Rude!!!

Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 8:41 am
by Martin
I'm quite happy to discuss how I make the jerky, get the recipes from, I even tell people how to make it at home using an electric fan oven, Im a great believer in the "Cake baking" theory, people like to know how things are made, its human nature, but of 99% of people who know how to bake a cake, most would still rather buy one than make one lol :) :)

Re: How Rude!!!

Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 2:19 pm
by Nigel
Alan E wrote:I'm a little surprised at the vehemence some people have against those who ask how something is researched or made! It's a question I often ask, as I am interested in the providence and the manufacturing processes.

For clothing, I have made enough of my own (doublet and hose for me, dress for my wife) to know the difficulties and have no problem with paying for well-made products. I still like to know how it is made and what research has gone into it though: I'm sorry if I've ever offended anyone with those questions (especially Nigel, who's nice)!


Hi Alan it really comes down to the way its asked. IF somebody is interested in placing a commission thenI'll talk to the cows come home and I know Debs has talked various textile students throughs tages of how to do something. The differance is when somebody arrives and does everything but dissassemble a garment on the stall and then expects you to provide chapter and verse on construction and provenance.

I WAS REALLY NICE last weeeknd

Re: How Rude!!!

Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 3:00 pm
by Biro
Interesting thread..

I think a lot of the comments here seem to hint at a common theme - that people have become too used to the price of goods that are mass-produced in the far east with cheap labour.
I seem to constantly have a hard time convincing people new to re-enactment that a lot of traders are not actually trying to rip people off and that yes, stuff that is researched and hand-crafted in the UK really does cost that much.

To be honest, I think many new people would be put off starting-up re-enactment if it wasn't for the availability of the cheap, foreign stuff (and help from group members making/selling old stuff on the cheap) to get them started.
But I also think that many experienced re-enactors wouldn't stay interested if it wasn't for the bug of constantly upgrading your stuff bit-by-bit (as budget allows) with the better, hand-crafted, custom-made stuff that many of the UK traders provide...

Re: How Rude!!!

Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 3:12 pm
by KeithFarrell
Biro wrote:Interesting thread..

I think a lot of the comments here seem to hint at a common theme - that people have become too used to the price of goods that are mass-produced in the far east with cheap labour.
I seem to constantly have a hard time convincing people new to re-enactment that a lot of traders are not actually trying to rip people off and that yes, stuff that is researched and hand-crafted in the UK really does cost that much.

To be honest, I think many new people would be put off starting-up re-enactment if it wasn't for the availability of the cheap, foreign stuff (and help from group members making/selling old stuff on the cheap) to get them started.
But I also think that many experienced re-enactors wouldn't stay interested if it wasn't for the bug of constantly upgrading your stuff bit-by-bit (as budget allows) with the better, hand-crafted, custom-made stuff that many of the UK traders provide...


This is an excellent point! Thank you for stating it so well.

There will always be a market for cheaper imported goods, because the good quality stuff from traders and craftsmen in this country are simply too expensive for new re-enactors without a large income. For example, university students can't afford to go out and spend a few thousands pounds on kit - in fact, no one can really do that, I'm pretty sure most people who have been re-enacting for a while wouldn't be able to go out and buy a second copy of every good quality piece of kit they have. I know I certainly couldn't! Cheap and shoddy foreign imports (and even cheap and shoddy British-made stuff) are a necessary evil, because people simply would not get into the hobby if it was prohibitively expensive, or even if it looked like it might be so expensive.

Just as Biro said though, there will also always be a place for traders and craftsmen who make and sell good quality items. Part of the fun of re-enactment is "trading up" and getting better kit, and the trading markets at the various big events are a superb way to do this. This might be taking the conversation off on a completely different track though, so I apologise :angel:

Re: How Rude!!!

Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 11:35 pm
by Chris T
I (as we all have) have learnt not to rise (normally) to the "I could mke it for that" or "what a rip off" comments, but there are limits.

Somebody at one of the big fairs picked up a pouch off one end of my stall, and walked the length of the stall explaining to his mate loudly how it was rubbish and not hand stitched, ( it was, and russet vegtan to a researched design) before literally throwing it onto the other end of the stall as he passed. I am afraid he got chased and told off: he looked totally gobsmacked...

Somebody else offered me £50 for a pair of shoes priced and labeled at £150.........

Re: How Rude!!!

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:30 pm
by gregory23b
MOPs is one thing, but other reenactors getting cheap research is another, worse than that is them then doing it really badly.

I used to tell people that I read certain books and learned by trail and error.

I firmly believe that knowledge is currency and that you have to watch the exchange rate when swapping it, especially when there is actual money involved.

Re: How Rude!!!

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 9:19 pm
by Kate Tiler
:thumbup: @ Jorge :)

(As there isn't a 'like' button!)

I've had to examine how I feel about this issue very closely. It is an issue I get now & again - sometimes from MOPs, more frequently from re-enactors, but don't get that often. I've had a couple of people who have come & taken close photos of me working, then the tiles, then tell me that they are going to go away & set up in business making them as all they have to do is get a kiln...

I've had one woman take a series of pictures of her little boy making a tile with me & then tell me she was intending to use the images as part of a teacher's pack she was going to market.

I've had to face many fears about these issues, and over time as I've carried on & these people haven't appeared to go & do what they said they would, I've relaxed a bit, but I've also had to calm Charlie down too (not quite much as Debs has to with Nigel, or Suzie does with Martin!) about people nicking our ideas for activities & workshops.

I've had former friends ring me to ask how to run a workshop that they've nicked off me, after telling me to my face they were going to do so, & then ring & ask for advice on how much material to order! Somehow I never got round to returning that phone call... this was the same former friend who nicked the idea for one of my product lines, as well as one of my only outlets - and when I actually only have 3 product lines, which go - big tile, little tile and tile necklace, that's quite a big percentage of my output!

But I've learnt over the last 10 years of doing this for a living that it's my passion and love for what I do that makes what I do unique, and that I really have nothing to fear. From my experience of losing my last career through ill health I know that I am more than what I do for a living and if someone came along & undercut everything I do, & copied everything I make (not that I want this to happen BTW!) - It wouldn't change me or stop me doing what I love. I am constantly evolving & changing how I present what I do, it may not look like it because it is gradual, but over time my understanding has deepened and this affects my interpretation.

Re: How Rude!!!

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 11:03 pm
by steven pole
Excellently said Kate :D

Re: How Rude!!!

Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:08 am
by gregory23b
Kate rocketh verily.

I would add that I actively refuse to buy anything from traders who I know have ripped other makers off (word gets round quite quickly), it has happened to me and others that I know. I don't care if their rip off is cheaper, the value of the original trader's work is greater than the small difference in price.

Given the extremely good value of many of the traders' wares, quite frankly asking for less is a bit cheeky, even though many will offer a modest discount, we all do/did to people who are decent and spend a bit or who are simply polite and appreciative.

Re: How Rude!!!

Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:32 am
by Kate Tiler
Yes - I'm shocked at how many people rip off Jim the Pot's work - it that case I think it's Emma that has to be stopped from nutting the individuals concerned, and like Jorge says - I won't buy from people who I know have ripped off Jim & his research.

I do run courses in medieval tile making and teach adults as well as children and I recognise that it is a part of my mission in life - to spread the love and the tiles! Again, I've had to confront my fears and examine how I feel about doing that, so that I can do that with an open heart and not in a mean-spirited way.

Coming from the other direction, in 2009 I was lucky enough to spend a day with one of my heroes, someone who has been making tiles since the 1970s and worked alongside Elizabeth Eames at the British Museum in producing the catalogue of the collection. The day was to really for me to sit at their feet in hero-worship as they are way beyond my experience and I have admired them for years and years. Despite them saying throughout the day that they've never taught anyone their skills, or written any of it down, and that none of their children are interested in learning from them, when I asked if it would be possible to spend some further time with them which I would be happy to pay for, and that it would be possible to get funding for this from my local council who had approached me with an offer of some money for my further training, they refused & were actually quite hostile. This despite them no longer actively making or producing and the fact that we have a very different approach & reason for making tiles.

So that in itself made me examine how I feel about encouraging other people and meant that when I started teaching the process, I do it as fully and as sincerely as I can, because it's not about me, its about passing it on. It's a tricky issue, but there are ways of asking respectfully how something is done, and ways of asking in order to either cut corners or to try to leap-frog over the experience and time spend learning a skill - which I don't believe can be done.

Re: How Rude!!!

Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:44 pm
by steven pole
Not wanting to cause trouble, but would it be ok for Jim to monopolise the medieval pot making industry? Other people make pots too and I'm sure they are just as good as Jims? Unless you patent or copyright a design then people are free to use that design.

Re: How Rude!!!

Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 1:05 pm
by Fox
Kate Tiler wrote:I've had one woman take a series of pictures of her little boy making a tile with me & then tell me she was intending to use the images as part of a teacher's pack she was going to market.

Model release form?

I suspect she's in danger of being on the wrong side of law if she did put your image in a book without one....

Kate Tiler wrote:I'm shocked at how many people rip off Jim the Pot's work

Out of interest, how do you know they are?
I thought most [if not all] of Jim's stuff is tied to a real find, so surely they could just be using the same sources.

I'm obviously a big fan of Jim's work, and I have bought, and continue to buy, lots of stuff from him; but I'm just wondering out loud....

Re: How Rude!!!

Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:31 pm
by LadyL
I've had several occasions of public being a tad rude, but most wash over me. However, to illustrate today's lack of culinary knowledge...

At a Christmas Market in Sheffield serving steak burgers, lamb burgers & wild boar,

"c'mon kids.. I'll take you to McDonald's.. we can get a proper burger". :wtf:

(wasn't my stall, I was just working on it)...

Re: How Rude!!!

Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 8:10 pm
by Kate Tiler
I don't want to say who makes copies of Jim's pots - that's not my place- but in terms of research - one design that I know of that has flooded the market he re-constructed from just a few shards that were a commission from the museum who owned them He worked out what it was, not from drawings and it was his original interpretation. It is always far harder to create something just from the drawings - much easier to copy someone else's pot. And it's not the same to say 'it's medieval - there's no copyright' - if you're the one that has spent a day at a museum carefully drawing something or spent a huge amount on catalogues in order to do research and place objects into context, you'd be annoyed too if someone bought something you've made & then copied it.

Re: How Rude!!!

Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 8:37 pm
by steven pole
I agree Kate, I was just being devils advocate :-)
I buy Jims pots whenever i need something made right and authentic, simply because i've known him a long time and he does this for a living not like some people who rip off work without any research at all.

Re: How Rude!!!

Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 8:40 pm
by Fox
Kate Tiler wrote:And it's not the same to say 'it's medieval - there's no copyright' - if you're the one that has spent a day at a museum carefully drawing something or spent a huge amount on catalogues in order to do research and place objects into context, you'd be annoyed too if someone bought something you've made & then copied it.

Although, there probably is no copyright....

And as I've said earlier, it happens in most forms of business; I've had my work ripped off in the past....
I'm not suggesting it's less wrong.

Re: How Rude!!!

Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:09 pm
by The sempster
Wench!! wrote:Oh we constantly get the garden-shed woodworking brigade taking photos then commenting loudly that 'I/dad/grandad could make that for half the price'. Really? Does he has the time (and the inclination), and the contacts to buy quality oak, handmade nails and hand-forged iron work to complete the look. Can he buy in bulk the way we do to keep the price down? It's the people who don't even acknowledge you while they're taking photos then just walk out - no word, no eye contact, nothing. They open chests and photograph the joints and the interiors, all the while discussing the build, then proclaim the I/dad/grandad line...

A bloke stomped in at Tewkesbury to ask if we had any 'cheap nails' because 'the man down the way' was selling his at 50p a pop which he thought was 'totally outrageous'. We just said, well yes, they're hand made! You know, made by hand?!!! Painstakingly, individually and one by one?!! Not on a machine?!!! 'Well, I'll just go to B&Q then'... Please do, and GO NOW.

We've also had the 'I'm going to be really cheeky and ask if you'll take £20 for this £45 box' routine... you've got to admire their audacity!

Teagirl was telling me about a woman who haggled mercilessly over the price of a set of beads, then reluctantly put down 50p. They were £48!!!

:wasntme:

I remember the "B&Q nail" man! :-) I did enjoy that encounter...
It takes making something yourself after researching it, finding sources and learning the right techniques for making it to appreciate how much work and knowledge goes into properly made things.

Re: How Rude!!!

Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:41 pm
by Joolz
Further derailing the OP:

When you talk about crafts that are very well documented and researched academically (and have been for decades if not centuries) or have a continous history of production it's sometimes difficult to say what is a copy of someone's work and what is something that has been arrived at independently by following the same methods and using well documented originals as reference. For instance, there are many books which contain copyright free images of original artefacts (thanks, Dover Publications) that can be used as the basis for recreating original items. I use many, many sources for inspiration, and try to modify and add my own touches wherever I can (enough for my work to be distinct from others'). However, sometimes it is a challenge to copy an original piece pretty much exactly (some originals simply can't be improved upon), and when this has also been done by others, who is copying what?

I guess you could argue that, it's OK to copy someone else's work, but only as an intellectual exercise and not one that you will use to gain profit. Let's not forget that most great craftsmen started out copying the work of others (as apprentices) in order to better appreciate and perfect the methods used. I am, for instance, entirely self taught and have never taken more than casual instruction in any of the many crafts that I practice. But I have found it invaluable to 'reverse engineer' the work of others (mainly using original artefacts, but also modern-made ones) in order to understand the methods behind the manufacture. Granted, I do not then go and churn them out and undercut all the others in the market......

Joolz

Re: How Rude!!!

Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 8:48 am
by House of De Clifford
Thank god we don't make stuff!!!!!
we just get the same old same old stupid questions......

"not lucky for the rabbit"
"was it dead when you killed it"
"urrrgghhh"( and no further comment)
" i tried that and it came out like cardboard"
"Do you catch all of these yourselves?"
"what do you do with it?"
"I'm a vegetarian" ( to which Dave replies" I'm not asking you to eat it!")

Boblad!!!!.......has a unique style of dealing with peeps in his tent.....he just sets them on fire, and waits for the chaos!.. whilst going about his business pretending nothing is wrong!


see you all soon at Broadlands and Herstie

Miranda and Dave

Re: How Rude!!!

Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:51 am
by ladydetemps
Teagirl wrote:
Fox wrote:
Teagirl wrote:There is a difference between mass-produced items, and individually created one-off items.

Really?
Tell that to the designer of a mass-produced item.


Hand-sewn kirtle is the same as Primark?

Do Primark do Kirtles? ;)

Re: How Rude!!!

Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 12:33 pm
by steven pole
House of De Clifford wrote:Thank god we don't make stuff!!!!!
we just get the same old same old stupid questions......

"not lucky for the rabbit"
"was it dead when you killed it"
"urrrgghhh"( and no further comment)
" i tried that and it came out like cardboard"
"Do you catch all of these yourselves?"
"what do you do with it?"
"I'm a vegetarian" ( to which Dave replies" I'm not asking you to eat it!")

Boblad!!!!.......has a unique style of dealing with peeps in his tent.....he just sets them on fire, and waits for the chaos!.. whilst going about his business pretending nothing is wrong!


see you all soon at Broadlands and Herstie

Miranda and Dave

That's just what I get when I wander round as a traveling trader. I have belts, pouches etc hanging from my basket, along with a brilliant hanging rabbit. :-D

Re: How Rude!!!

Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 12:49 pm
by Fox
steven pole wrote:
House of De Clifford wrote:"not lucky for the rabbit"
"was it dead when you killed it"
"urrrgghhh"( and no further comment)
" i tried that and it came out like cardboard"
"Do you catch all of these yourselves?"
"what do you do with it?"
"I'm a vegetarian" ( to which Dave replies" I'm not asking you to eat it!")

That's just what I get when I wander round as a traveling trader. I have belts, pouches etc hanging from my basket, along with a brilliant hanging rabbit. :-D

It's just what I say to them every time I go in their tent....

I also recommend going into Greenland and Game and asking for exotic minerals like loctite and marmite.
:lol:

Re: How Rude!!!

Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:49 pm
by gregory23b
I asked them if they had any hoaxite ;-)

Re: How Rude!!!

Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 10:29 am
by greenland_and_game
The answer being ..NO

And the Kryptonite is still on order.


But we do have colemanite, sillimanite, ludwigite and many more obscure named lumps :)
:D :D :D

Re: How Rude!!!

Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 10:57 am
by Teagirl
Do you offer discounts and gift wrapping?

Re: How Rude!!!

Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:49 pm
by Martin
G&G have you got any of those Irish Viewing Crystals :twisted: , in fact if you wanna watch John or Alex turn a funny colour, just ask them about any crystal on their stall :D