REMINDER - NMTF Historic Traders Branch AGM

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Re: REMINDER - NMTF Historic Traders Branch AGM

Postby Martin » Wed Mar 10, 2010 6:13 pm

whos trying to get money out of a defunct charity ? where did that come from ? wasnt talking about Caldicot either as it wasnt a show being run for profit , as for finding persons who think they can make a quick buck from organising a show / market being hard to find, not that difficult TBH m8 and you'd have to be very niave to think they arent out there, there are a few out there , most try it once or twice then sink into oblivion, but for the traders who attended such shows its still a loss, and many traders are only to willing to help someone start a show, every show a trader attends thats being run for a first time takes a risk, many people offer the moon on a stick to get traders to thir shows so we take the risk and if we didnt and only attended shows with a long history then no new shows would happen m8, simple as that, believe me I wasnt having a pop at anyone in particular, so if Ive touched a nerve m8 there was no intention :) :silent:


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Re: REMINDER - NMTF Historic Traders Branch AGM

Postby Martin » Wed Mar 10, 2010 6:15 pm

cross post lol, I only mentioned Tage as an example of needing an onsite NMTF rep and as its not going on anymore it seemed OK to mention :wink:


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Re: REMINDER - NMTF Historic Traders Branch AGM

Postby Pete the Pong » Wed Mar 10, 2010 6:17 pm

I wasn't at the event that concerns you Martin, so I have no idea of the details. However,this looks at least on the surface to be a clear breach of Market Trading Law.
Once the organiser has accepted your fee, and therefore granted you a license to trade, then he (or she) must provide a market for you to trade at, as agreed on your application form (or equally verbally). There may be exceptional circumstance where it is "reasonable" to cancel an event (ie the flooding of Joust a few years back), but those reasons must be very clearly explained.
Also, in the absence of an elected committee member, then I know that the NMTF will give full backing to any individual member who is airing a genuine legitimate grievance. The only problem is in knowing what actually is a "legitimate grievance".


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Re: REMINDER - NMTF Historic Traders Branch AGM

Postby Martin » Wed Mar 10, 2010 6:27 pm

have to say m8, it doesnt concern me now lol, twas an example :) dont want to get caught up in owt LOL :)


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Re: REMINDER - NMTF Historic Traders Branch AGM

Postby Fox » Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:42 pm

Martin wrote:whos trying to get money out of a defunct charity ? where did that come from ?

We were talkng about not advertsing being a breech of contract; I was suggesting that where events go bad there is, usually, no money to get back.

Do try to keep up chap. :wink:

I think in general, no one plans for an event to fail, and I think incompetence is much more likely than conspiracy.

Anyone trying to make a quick buck out of events is involved in both conspiracy and cockup, because they've fundmentally misunderstood the ecconomics of re-enactment events.



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Re: REMINDER - NMTF Historic Traders Branch AGM

Postby Hinny Annie » Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:10 pm

trouble is some people's idea of advertising and other people's ideas can be somewhat different, unless its an event we have been to before we have a list of questions we ask before we send the pitch fee, couple of years ago we actually pulled out of an event not an historic one I might add because the only advertising the organiser had done was a facebook group


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Re: REMINDER - NMTF Historic Traders Branch AGM

Postby Martin » Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:48 pm

I suppose Im not talking solely reenactment shows either, we trade at such a variety of shows but you find the same in all area's some good, some bad and some bloody hopeless , reenactment certainly aint the worst by any stretch lol


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Re: REMINDER - NMTF Historic Traders Branch AGM

Postby Hinny Annie » Wed Mar 10, 2010 10:30 pm

your right Martin re-enactment shows certainly are not amongst the worst, they are however amongst the cheapest


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Re: REMINDER - NMTF Historic Traders Branch AGM

Postby Martin » Wed Mar 10, 2010 10:47 pm

with out a doubt, the most expensive reenacttment show is less than a 1/3rd the cost of some of the festivals we do (soz about the highjack carry on with the NMTF discussion when your ready :angel: )


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Re: REMINDER - NMTF Historic Traders Branch AGM

Postby houseoffreyja » Thu Mar 11, 2010 12:20 pm

O.K lets get back on subject.
Just out of interest, are there any traders not going to Tewksbury, either because they can't get in or because it's not there period, who would like to attend the AGM?
It seems to me that the Historic Traders AGM has become the Medieval Tewksbury AGM.
If you don't trade there, you can't get to the meeting. The public has to leave at 6pm, so you can't just pop in as a MoP at 6.30. So, unintentionally, the Tewksbury Committe decide who attends the AGM.
So, anybody wants to attend and can't?
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Re: REMINDER - NMTF Historic Traders Branch AGM

Postby The Iron Dwarf » Thu Mar 11, 2010 12:47 pm

I expect they would allow people to attend the meeting though I have no proof either way



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Re: REMINDER - NMTF Historic Traders Branch AGM

Postby Hinny Annie » Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:25 pm

I dont think thats an issue. A representative from the NMTF has been at every AGM I have been to, and the organisers of Tewks are well aware that its on, I dont think there is anywhere else where a lot of Traders will be, we are all spread all over the place and for us at least if it was not somewhere we trade we wouldn't go. We live in Northumberland so nowhere is near for us


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Re: REMINDER - NMTF Historic Traders Branch AGM

Postby Pete the Pong » Thu Mar 11, 2010 2:28 pm

Hinny Annie wrote:I dont think thats an issue. A representative from the NMTF has been at every AGM I have been to, and the organisers of Tewks are well aware that its on, I dont think there is anywhere else where a lot of Traders will be, we are all spread all over the place and for us at least if it was not somewhere we trade we wouldn't go. We live in Northumberland so nowhere is near for us

Agreed, especially if you are carrying your membership card (which you should be for the AGM!).On the subject of location, anywhere is going to be a long way for some members (I live in Norfolk!!). And as stated earlier, if anyone can think of a better event and venue which meet the right criteria, then I'm sure that Roger and Duke Henry will consider it. We could also hold it mid week anywhere in the country -but if we did then I doubt whether anyone at all would turn up!!!!
BTW, for everyone's information, the presence of a very senior official of the NMTF is actually compulsory, as they are there to oversee procedings, and also to be in the Chair whilst the comittee is being re-elected.


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Re: REMINDER - NMTF Historic Traders Branch AGM

Postby Hinny Annie » Thu Mar 11, 2010 3:10 pm

just out of interest Pete what do other branches of the NMTF do about holding there AGM do they hold it in the same place or does it move about


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Re: REMINDER - NMTF Historic Traders Branch AGM

Postby Pete the Pong » Thu Mar 11, 2010 3:29 pm

Hinny Annie wrote:just out of interest Pete what do other branches of the NMTF do about holding there AGM do they hold it in the same place or does it move about

Seeing as most branches are located in one town (or small area) they don't have to move anywhere!
Our problem is that our members are scattered all over the country, and we never all trade in the same place at any one time.


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Re: REMINDER - NMTF Historic Traders Branch AGM

Postby houseoffreyja » Sat Mar 13, 2010 1:23 pm

Tewksbury doesn't seem to be very central. So would it be possible to organise an AGM, say near Birmingham in Jan. when most traders are not at fairs. Then anyone who wanted to, could attend.
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Re: REMINDER - NMTF Historic Traders Branch AGM

Postby Pete the Pong » Sat Mar 13, 2010 7:45 pm

houseoffreyja wrote:Tewksbury doesn't seem to be very central. So would it be possible to organise an AGM, say near Birmingham in Jan. when most traders are not at fairs. Then anyone who wanted to, could attend.
Elaine


Problem here is firstly even somewhere central like Birmingham is a long drive for a lot of us, especially in January when there are no shows to pay for the petrol. I personally would find it very hard to justufy spending about £50 on fuel, plus losing a whole day simply to attend a meeting. But I'd certainly like to hear the opinions of everyone else on that. Secondly as I said in an earlier post, constitutionally the AGM has to take place within a few (I think 3) weeks of the same date each year. Which is mid June to mid August. This is because the inaugral meeting was at Herstmonceaux, but the second one was brought forward to Tewkesbury simply because (as stated above) there are a large number of members present on site, even if they don't choose to attend.


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Re: REMINDER - NMTF Historic Traders Branch AGM

Postby Neibelungen » Sat Mar 13, 2010 9:02 pm

Doesn't some of this come down to the fact that to some degree re-enactment traders see them selves as a completely seperate category to any other type of craft business, or business for that matter. Wake up folks... your not.

Somebody puts on a re-enactment event. Your offered the opportunity to go and trade at it. Nobody makes you go. You pay a fee and you get a space.

That's it.

You do any other kind of selling business. Nobody guarantees people through the door. Does your advertising. Pays you money because the weathers bad and nobody went out shopping.

That's what you get trading in a field, or in a high street.. It's all the same.

You pay your £10, your £50 or your £500 pound stall fee and you get a space. Yes, pay £800 for a space at a major organised indoor craft market and you can expect a lot more... but not much. Mostly you'll also have to pay for electricity, tables, seats. Go do the Harrogate or Earl's Court Craft fairs... Think they run at about £1500 plus for a starting 8 foot pich for 6 foot table.

Re-enactment markets (apart from the main indoor ones) are not much more than glorified car boot sales, except they might last a couple of days rather than just a sunday morning.

Your a hobby craft in a niche market, selling to a niche hobby. If you want selling to the general public, do what every other business has to do... get a shop or develop a significant web presence. Your no different from any other business at all.

It costs too much to go to an event and not take anything... either don't go, pick your events very carefully, or charge enough to cover that eventuality. That's life in business.

Your either a real business or a beer money trader... make the choice.

I've been doing it 20 years and I still havn't made up my mind !!


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Re: REMINDER - NMTF Historic Traders Branch AGM

Postby Neibelungen » Sat Mar 13, 2010 9:07 pm

Opps... :wtf:

Missed out all of page 2.... Appologies for the scuba... but I'll still stick to my words.


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Re: REMINDER - NMTF Historic Traders Branch AGM

Postby Martin » Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:33 am

couldnt an AGM be done at one of the big fairs at the beginning or end of the year ? :D


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Re: REMINDER - NMTF Historic Traders Branch AGM

Postby Pete the Pong » Mon Mar 15, 2010 11:33 am

Martin wrote:couldnt an AGM be done at one of the big fairs at the beginning or end of the year ? :D

Firstly, as I have pointed out before thr NMTF rules are that it should be held within a few weeks of the same date annually (ie for us mid summer) and secondly if you mean the ILHF or TORM that immediately limits the attendance to the members who work at one or the other. As you know for various reasons very few of us trade on both of them. Plus the fact that everyone scatters the moment we close, whereas at Tewkesbury virtually all traders remain on site for the evening.


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Re: REMINDER - NMTF Historic Traders Branch AGM

Postby Pete the Pong » Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:18 am

Martin wrote: look at T***** last year for a classic example a show cancelled on the main day and reopened 2 hours before the show was due to close, each and every trader there was of the same opinion, that the show could have been opened all day, a beautiful, warm summers day in Cornwall, if there was someone there who could be a traders rep recognised by the NMTF it would have opened a damn sight sooner, as it was we all had to get together to sort it out ourselves :)

Martin, have just received a PM from someone closely connected with the show and there was a very urgent "health and safety" reason why the show had to be closed. Which I totally agree with -and actually lost the organisers a lot of money.
The issue is not whether or not a show has to be abandoned. It is to remind organisers that us traders are legally bound to be informed as to WHY a show has been stopped, and why our "License to Trade" has been revoked.
It seems that on this event the reenactor captains were consulted, but not us. Which in hindsight was the wrong way round.
Lets hope that it doesn't happen again.


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Re: REMINDER - NMTF Historic Traders Branch AGM

Postby Martin » Tue Mar 16, 2010 10:14 am

Pete , Im not going into Tage anymore, but before you assume that what ever was in the PM I suggest you talk to all the traders that were there , Ali fabric dealer, Phil the Stagman , Chad the glass seller m Lavender Lady et all and many others including the trader who's partner actually works for the H&S people in his real life job who inspected the "reason" and then rang the NMTF for advice because in his professional assessment of the situation that wasn't quite accurate, I dont want to go over old ground and cause, and be the one bloody well blamed for utter the fiasco that happened. Im more than happy to openly discuss the problem on line but it seems pointless. This was discussed before but if your PMer really thinks thats the case they should have said so on the thread at the time. I think I know who the PM was from and if he wants to ring me he's welcome though ,I will say now, publicly , the show should not have been closed for the length of time it was and 90% of the traders got together and demanded a meeting, after the meeting the on site H&S bod went to look at the problem with the traders partner who was also a H&S bod and the show was opened straight away when they got back, what does that say. I have been blamed for the whole thing by certain people, luckily people who I don't have much time for so I'm not that bothered, It was a bad decision made to early in the day, simple as,I thought it was over and done with :roll: , but Pete, no you weren't there m8 and had you been you would also have been as angry as every trader there at the closure.
Enough of this tiresome subject and maybe I shouldn't have used a now defunct show as an example, the example I was trying to get across before I ruffled some sensitives souls feathers was that had an official NMTF officer been on site that show would not have been canceled and that it took the efforts of 90% of the traders there working together to rectify matters, which we did and TBH I'm proud of the way all the traders got together and reacted reasonably (cept me when after I lost my rag when Ferret tried to go toe to toe and nose to chest with me !!)
p.s to the PMer if you think we "need to talk" ring me :roll:

Sorry for the hijack but I couldn't ignore that, if anyone thinks its important enough to warrant further discussion on the rights and wrongs and your really convinced your right and 90% of the traders were wrong then start a thread and say so


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Re: REMINDER - NMTF Historic Traders Branch AGM

Postby Pete the Pong » Tue Mar 16, 2010 10:57 am

Yes, Martin, you are right, the discussion over the particular show in question needs to be dropped.
The important thing is for everyone, organisers and traders, to learn the lessons.
Basically these are:
1) There will be circumstances when a show needs to be closed down
2) It is essential (and possibly a legal requirement) that the Traders are immediately fully informed of the reasons why this has been done.
3) The Traders have a right to challenge any such decision, and if there is no elected Branch official present, should then form an ad hoc committee to tackle the issue. Which is exactly what you did.
4) Any member has the right to phone the NMTF head office for further advice. Which is exactly what you did.
If all this is done quickly and efficiently it should be possible in most cases to resolve issues and to minimise trading losses.


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Re: REMINDER - NMTF Historic Traders Branch AGM

Postby Apothecary » Thu Apr 08, 2010 1:00 pm

Just a quick question into the pot.....is there any relation in law with rights of reasonable expectiation rather than contracual law, If I pay my pitch fee, then there is a resonable expectation that you (the organiser) will advertise - I think I may be heading somewhere with this as I used to work at a solicitors so there may be some grounds even if sketchy ?

Other points !

As far as traders are concerned - to all re-enactors our there - we are somethimes looked upon as LEECHES following you guys around in the hope that you will part with your hrad earned cash - this really is not case with a lot of traders - we do need public to trade with because once you have bought a cloak - how many more will you buy in a year (just an example)

As our pitch fees goes up and up, as pete said a minimum of £250 before you get out of the front door, (except where the ILHF AND TORM are concerned when it's a great deal higher than that) if re-enactors were charged say £25 to pitch their tent, like at a camp site, realisticaly - how many re-enactors do you think would turn up - ???

If you were charged to go to work - and your wages were almost at breakeven point would you bother going ????

Dunno myself but it might make people think of it another way rather than traders Bl**dy whinging on all the time - trading is work and play, we actually work harder than most re-enactors in the respect that we can't wonder off and go walk about and don't eat properly sometimes during events - so why should we not have a say in the way things are done, just because orgainsers have got away with doing it "this way" or "that way" for so long does it mean they have done it right !-

We are not orgainised and that is what the they rely on - not one of us is nieve to think that if we complained at an event we would be listened to but rather treated like a scocial porior and told to pack up and P**s off the site.....but how many of us would stand together at an event and approach the organiser and say - no that's not fair, WE ALL want our money back and we are leaving ? Sorry to mention events, but mentioning that Caldecote doesn't advertise is no excuse just because it's an open event, too many times traders are met by MOPs walking their dogs to be asked in complete supprise "do you do this every year ? we didn't know that this was on as we would have brought the family ????? and countless other stupid remarks like that !

I am sorry for having a rant, but it really slaps me in the face, as anyone can set up an event and charge loads of money for just renting a field and putting on an event - having no idea what they are about or listen to traders who have been doing this a long time.......and as far as charging re-enactors goes - maybe some of the expence can be off put onto them, say the advertising budget ?, as most work 39 hours per week and have a regular income - and don't need event income as much as traders who's only scorce is trading ?????

Personally I feel that now a days just to break even at events is a god-send sometimes as I do not want to be out of pocket !!!

Apoligies if I have upset anyone but this realy is a contentious issue and if nothing continues to be done - we will all be paying through the nose to attend events knowing that it may just cover our hobby ! maybe we need to get a real job instead ???



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Re: REMINDER - NMTF Historic Traders Branch AGM

Postby Ania M » Tue May 18, 2010 3:01 pm

It's lucky I found this forum, as since joining the Historic Traders branch last year I've never heard a peep about them, from them, who they are, what purpose they serve etc, etc. I joined NMTF for the insurance and have seen no difference in moving to the Historical Traders branch as yet. I will be at Tewkes but it will be pointless my voting as I have no idea who is a member, beyond the assumption that everyone is. It would be helpful if there was some sort of contact via the NMTF to at least point one in the right direction!



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Re: REMINDER - NMTF Historic Traders Branch AGM

Postby The Iron Dwarf » Tue May 18, 2010 3:44 pm

some display the nmtf sign.
I will be there to vote like last year


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Re: REMINDER - NMTF Historic Traders Branch AGM

Postby Pete the Pong » Tue May 18, 2010 4:35 pm

Ania, have pm'd you
Pete


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