Vegetables, Herbs, Dyeplants etc.

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Wiblick
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Vegetables, Herbs, Dyeplants etc.

Postby Wiblick » Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:22 pm

Tequila Head posted

The white (Kuttiger) carrots can be ordered from:
http://www.organiccatalog.com/catalog/p ... ts_id=1425

She believes that the Spanish Black carrots are the ones to get:
http://www.thomasetty.co.uk/vegetables/index.html

Thomas Etty seem to be a very good source of older variety seeds - in fact I think this is who she went to for Skirret (which unfortunately bolted!) and her custard white marrows.



Can anyone point me in the direction of a list of vegetables I should be growing - a must have list for pre 18th C. I got an allotment late this year and so will be planting it for the first time next year. Going to spend the winter research varities and places to buy seed (that will ship to Ireland). But if anyone has any favourites or top tips I'd love to hear them.

Anything from unusual flower varities to dye plants.



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Wiblick
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Postby Wiblick » Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:31 pm

wow I see Etty's have a timeline. Brilliant.



m300572
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Postby m300572 » Fri Oct 06, 2006 1:59 pm

To some extent it depends on what period and function your garden is. The Weald and Downland Museum at Singleton hadve a metieval garden in fromnt of thier Wealden House which I think is based on 14/15th C - there are some details published in Sylvia Landsberg's book on medieval gardens.



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Postby Cat » Sat Oct 07, 2006 9:41 am

Try googling 'seeds by size' for things like purple or white or crimson carrots.
Also, have you got a copy of Cooking in England by Dorothy Hartley? She has a number of quotes by Tusser and the like, who were pre C18th.
I can recommend it as a good book to read if you like food. It even covers chocolate...

Allotment eh? Good luck! It's been a great year for courgettes!


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Postby Cat » Sat Oct 07, 2006 9:50 am

Here we go, from the lady herself:
Quinces (1700)
Goosegogs (1700)
Raspberry (1600)
Medlars (Roman or pre-)
Eyringo (sea holly) (Markham, 1616)
Violets (1300s)
Cowslips(1700)
White, rice, pease, beans, pear apple, vine(Hyclutt, 1600s).
Worts (C13th)


ooh, heck minor domestic problem, mre this evening.


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Postby Wim-Jaap » Sun Oct 08, 2006 11:04 am

questions:

Were there raisins used in Scotland (highlands, lower and middle class) in the 18th century?

What were the most used vegetables in the 18th century highlands (lower and middle class)?

Greenthings Wim-Jaap


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Postby Cat » Sun Oct 08, 2006 6:49 pm

Wiblick- another good food book with a lot more attribution to source (and dating) is C. Anne Wilson, Food and Drink in Britain. isbn:014055.1018
It is full of good recipe ideas and tells which foods were available from pre-Roman to modern times.

And, a really odd one from ' Adam's luxury and Eve's Cookery',dated 1744 tells how poorer Irish people eat potatoes with 'salt only', others eat them with butter and salt but most (get this) with milk and sugar. :?

Ah, just read on a bit, it was to make 'em more like sweet potatoes.

Also, if you're doing any camp cooking for C18th, a Swiss traveller called Carl Morris noted in 1782 that most English veggies were served with a flour and butter sauce as dressing.

Reading the book as posting, sorry! You have such a lot to choose from! Some of the very fashionable veggies were cardoons or artichokes, skirrets, eyringo (again), rhubarb,any of the soft fruits or tree fruits, grapes, peas (verrry popular, pea tart!)

Oh, ah, eyringo candied is said to be an aphrodisiac. Like you needed to know that.

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Postby behanner » Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:09 pm

You could grow poppies. :D

Dunno if they were grown in England but they were in Lubeck, and they could be illegal though. But could be great fun.



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Postby Tuppence » Sun Oct 08, 2006 11:31 pm

flowers too - borage - nasturtiums - chives, etc, etc


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Postby Sophia » Mon Oct 09, 2006 12:02 am

Also useful for modern food.

Borage flowers and leaves are a great addition to Pimms and Nastursium flowers are an excellent addition to salads.

Also most of your classic herb garden - rosemary, thyme, lavender, marjoram, lovage, winter savoury, juniper, bay, angelica, sweet cisceley (not sure on spelling there), pansies, violets (English not African), Damask roses

These will provide both colour, flavour and scents for you period garden.

I do have a book on the plants, planting and ideas behind the Medieval Garden but it is out on loan at the moment. I will try and retrieve so I can give you the reference.

Sophia :D



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Postby m300572 » Mon Oct 09, 2006 1:02 pm

Code: Select all

What were the most used vegetables in the 18th century highlands (lower and middle class)?
[quote]

Probably kale of different types - the kitchen garden in lowland Scots houses was called the 'kailyard'.  I would think onions/leeks wand herbs would have figured - I'd have to check and see if I have anything a bit more specific.[/quote]



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Postby Wim-Jaap » Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:55 am

m300572 wrote:

Code: Select all

What were the most used vegetables in the 18th century highlands (lower and middle class)?
[quote]

Probably kale of different types - the kitchen garden in lowland Scots houses was called the 'kailyard'.  I would think onions/leeks wand herbs would have figured - I'd have to check and see if I have anything a bit more specific.[/quote]


Thanks, that would be very great!

Greenthings Wim-Jaap


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Postby gregory23b » Thu Oct 12, 2006 8:39 pm

2d

"nasturtiums "

Only post medieval though*, remember that Wiblick, nastiurchins are not medieval european, Latin American in origin, bloody tasty though.

* I know Wib said pre 18thc but, you know, there is pre and there is pre...blah , bye.


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Postby Cat » Fri Oct 13, 2006 4:20 pm

Try the variegated leaved ones. Not necesarily a modern invention, as the variegation is caused by a virus and can occur spontaneously (I had a variegated pepper plant happen this year, v pretty but unfortnitly sterile.)

They have incredibly pretty leaves, and have bright bright flowers and grow like a weed.


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Postby Nigonwyrtas » Mon Nov 06, 2006 2:55 pm

These people are a good source of old plant varieties. They used to be called the Henry Doubleday Research Association. Now called Garden Organic. They have the UK repository of old varieties of plant seeds, as banned by the EEC:

[/url]www.gardenorganic.org.uk[url]

I've always found Suffolk Herbs great, too, esp for herbs and dye plant seeds:

[/url]www.suffolkherbs.com[url]

GardenOrganic are the foremost authority - and no doubt someone there could advise you of what's what for given dates. The Suffolk Herbs catalogue is worth getting, as it's a read in itself - very informative. Is full of tips.

Some dye plants are better off found than grown, given the amount of space they take up. For years I used a big stand of wild weld, on a roadside. Once I found it, it wasn't worth taking up space in my garden, growing it.


Woad is a bienniel. The only leaves of use to you are first year leaves but I used to keep it the second year to harvest my own seeds. Bought the first lot off Suffolk Herbs then just harvested my own seeds thereafter.

Madder takes a couple of years to have roots worth using, and is not madly interesting to look at (but then, no dye plant is). So you have to think long term, as well.

If you become a member of their Heritage Seed Library, you get some free seeds each year - to keep the old varieties alive, that the EEC is trying to stamp out in the interests of uniformity and us all buying French apples. :wink:



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Postby gregory23b » Tue Nov 07, 2006 4:42 pm

"and is not madly interesting to look at (but then, no dye plant is)"

I love Weld, it has a really delicate flower structure and the new flowers are quite beautiful, close up of course, not at 70 mph up the A14.

Also like its sweet honey smell when dried, quite pleasant.

Totally agree about not bothering to grow it, why when chances are the garden soil is too rich and not manky enough like a good roadside verge or bit of wasteland.

My little daughter and I gathered some from some development land near the docks in Ipswich, she can now identify weld at 20 paces, we also found loads of wild rocket in the same space, loads of it I tells ya.

Not a dyer, but I make lake pigments from weld, brazil and others


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Postby Panda » Fri Nov 24, 2006 4:21 pm

Nigonwyrtas wrote:If you become a member of their Heritage Seed Library, you get some free seeds each year - to keep the old varieties alive, that the EEC is trying to stamp out in the interests of uniformity and us all buying French apples. :wink:

Can an Irsh person become a member of The Heritage Seed Library? I'm currently conving my Dad to "lend" me an acre


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Postby Alexandra » Fri Dec 08, 2006 5:35 pm

Don't forget some roses! Scented rose petals... good for the old sallet.
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