Clove covered oranges and Pomanders

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Wiblick
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Clove covered oranges and Pomanders

Postby Wiblick » Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:35 pm

so is it oh so Victorian or even later to do this or is there any earlier period evidence for people sticking cloves in citrus fruits?

I plan to do them anyway as apparently they make a good moth repellant but I have a Christmas show coming up (either 15th C or 17th C, period as yet undecided) and wondered if I could use them as part of my display?
Last edited by Wiblick on Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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Postby Annis » Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:04 pm

Don't know if they are Tudor, but they are made in the Stillroom at Kentwell.

They are also known as pomanders.


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Postby lidimy » Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:21 pm

I believe they are firmly Tudor, I recall a school trip to Stranger's Hall wher they had found an original pomander, made from orange with cloves stuck in.


It may have been 17th C actually, but definitely suitable for your display :D


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Postby Annis » Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:23 pm

BUt just remember, oranges and cloves are very expensive! (I'm sure you all knew that)

Also, oranges came from Portugal and were called portingales. Apparently.


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Postby Wiblick » Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:40 pm

thanks, really appreciate the info.

I've been doing a spice display for about two years now as my LH display and I'm getting really bored with it, just trying to inject some newness into it for my sanity. I am without crafting ability! (thinking of a Cabinet of Wonder for 17thC and an Alchemist's Display for medieval for next year). The display we're doing at Christmas is at the National Museum so I like to make it look better than the ones we do in a tent in a muddy field.

So thanks muchly and yep I'm aware of the huge expense of both cloves and oranges during both periods.

Aoife



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Postby Annis » Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:44 pm

ooh, sounds good, good luck!


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Postby sally » Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:39 pm

the wooden pomander from the Mary Rose is thought by a lot of people to look like a rendition of cloves in an orange. Wolseys pomander though was a hollowed out orange that was filled with a sponge soaked in aromatics. You also get seventeenth and eighteenth century references to oranges stuck with cloves being dried in teh stillroom before being pulverised to add to sachets and sweetbags, so yep, you should be ok.



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Postby Wiblick » Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:52 pm

Sally thanks SO much.



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Postby Karen Larsdatter » Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:46 pm

sally wrote:the wooden pomander from the Mary Rose is thought by a lot of people to look like a rendition of cloves in an orange.

Here's a photo: http://www.maryrose.org/explore/barber/disease.htm

(Good thing not all pomanders were meant to smell like what they looked like, though; the ones I've collected links to at http://www.larsdatter.com/pomanders.htm include pomanders shaped like skulls! There's also a few shaped like books.) :)



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Postby Wiblick » Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:21 pm

yes indeed when searching for the Mary Rose one I came across your list of images (really you just bowl me over!). I'm happy enough that I can say that the Mary Rose one kinda looks like a clove studded orange.

And I've just come across the SCA's cloven fruit game, forewarned is forearmed :wink: , we get a lot of tourists to shows and invariably SCA people checking out the local re-enactment scene. Met a Canadian couple this year who were Baron & Baroness of their area.



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Postby sally » Sat Dec 08, 2007 9:31 am

I'm hoping to have my next small book out next year- this one is on the history and contents of pomanders, watch this space :D



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Postby Wiblick » Sat Dec 08, 2007 3:52 pm

excellent. Because I have decided that pomanders are going to be the theme of my 2008 spice display. People still ask me to do it so I need to make it new for me.

I shall look forward to seeing the book.

Now does Tod of todsstuff do a pomander... shopping time! (the only real reason to develop new themes)



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Postby sally » Sat Dec 08, 2007 4:08 pm

If Tod hasn't got any in his stock, we have. A couple of different sorts would be a good adddition to a display :wink:



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Postby Wiblick » Sat Dec 08, 2007 4:16 pm

yes indeed, happened on your website during my search on the net... pming you frantically.



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Postby Vicky » Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:58 pm

Highly recommend Peter Crossman's pomanders:

http://groups.msn.com/CrossmanCrafts/pomanders.msnw



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Postby Wiblick » Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:22 pm

Vicky you darling! I've only found 2 replicas so far a pewter one from Steve Millingham and a kinda dodgy mary rose one - which comes with modern bead things, and seems to be in various places at various prices

Aoife



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Postby Vicky » Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:25 pm

Wiblick wrote:Vicky you darling! I've only found 2 replicas so far a pewter one from Steve Millingham and a kinda dodgy mary rose one - which comes with modern bead things, and seems to be in various places at various prices

Aoife


I have a boxwood one from Peter, and it's beautiful. He does them to order, but also trades at TORM, and is a really helpful guy. :D



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Postby Cat » Sun Dec 09, 2007 3:48 pm

Sally's pomanders smell amazing too. I have a number dotted around the radiators in my house. They make winter bearable!


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Postby Wiblick » Sun Dec 09, 2007 8:18 pm

Hey Cat!

yep, have ordered some starter things from Sally with a view to ordering a small display worth of stuff in the New Year for the season.

Won't be seeing you until Tewkers next year. Will PM you.


Aoife



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Postby Wiblick » Mon Dec 10, 2007 10:07 am

of course all would have been solved if I'd just taken a moment to look at Sally's book The Artifice of Beauty which I do own!

Show confirmed as early 17th C so a change of costume and not much else, can't really have my 17th C spices as they are mostly introduced post 1650... oh well.

Aoife



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Postby gregory23b » Mon Dec 10, 2007 12:36 pm

Annis
"Also, oranges came from Portugal and were called portingales. Apparently."

And they were also called oranges too.

The greeks call oranges Portokali - - ie Portingale. :D


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Postby m300572 » Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:23 pm

I beleive that 'orange' is derived from 'naranj' which is Arabic for 'orange' in the fruit sense.

Now. are oranges orange because they are orange coloured or is orange colour orange becasue its the same colour as the fruit? And if the latter what colour was 'orange' before the fruit was invented? :lol:


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Postby Annis » Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:14 pm

hmm...interesting!


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Postby Brother Ranulf » Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:50 pm

m300572,

It would be interesting to know precisely when the Arabic word passed into English; Old English doesn't seem to have a word for orange (the colour). Perhaps it's the Crusades, again (who said they were a bad thing??)

Latin uses "luteus" which can mean saffron, or orange, or orange-yellow.

It is possible that Middle English is responsible for dropping the n of naranj, by fixing it to the indefinite article ("an aranj" instead of "a naranj"); or perhaps the o was a result of French confusion with or, gold. :?

So in answer to your riddle, maybe the colour was "saffron", or "gold", or golden yellow, before the orange (fruit) was known.


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Postby gregory23b » Tue Dec 11, 2007 12:18 am

We might remember that Oranges are not the only fruit,
\to have been imported from Iberia, quince too IIRC, or at least marmelade - from Marmelo (Portuguese for Quince - the Dons call it Membrillo).


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Postby Wiblick » Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:54 pm

Christmas post being what it is I only got my pomander things from Sally & Steve Millingham today and yesterday, a great pity but my own fault for taking a notion so late in the year.

Now just waiting on my lamp shaped pomander case from Peter Crossman and the initial flurry is done with.

Going to spend the next couple of months putting together a Pomander/Still Room display for the season. We'll be doing a lot of 17th C next year so lots more purchases to do!



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Postby Cat » Sat Dec 22, 2007 5:51 pm

Wiblick- I'll pm you, too! :D


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