2015 Law Commission 'antique' gun proposals

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Re: 2015 Law Commission 'antique' gun proposals

Postby Mark Griffin » Sun Sep 13, 2015 8:35 pm

National Assoc of Renactment Societies.


Are they still going? Wow.


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Re: 2015 Law Commission 'antique' gun proposals

Postby Mark Griffin » Sun Sep 13, 2015 8:45 pm

include provisions entitling you to a state subsidized amount of black powder.


Whaaaaaaaattt???????!!!!!!!

Thin end of the wedge there.... fishermen will get state subsidized bait next.


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Re: 2015 Law Commission 'antique' gun proposals

Postby Fox » Mon Sep 14, 2015 9:09 am

Arquebus arrives on this forum.
They have never posted before, and they have only posted in this thread.
At no time have they revealed who they are, or why they are qualified or interested to talk on this subject.

And then they write:
Arquebus wrote:It will also include provisions entitling you to a state subsidized amount of black powder.

I'm calling Troll.



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Re: 2015 Law Commission 'antique' gun proposals

Postby Mark Griffin » Mon Sep 14, 2015 9:26 am

Fox, please don't scare him/her/them away, they are fighting for my right to have govt sponsored bp and that alone makes them my friend. I'm assuming other hobby/special interest groups are going to be treated in the same way.


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Re: 2015 Law Commission 'antique' gun proposals

Postby acecat999 » Mon Sep 14, 2015 2:36 pm

Arquebus wrote:
acecat999 wrote:What is a replica antique?

You havent answered the question. Did he specifically suggest guns currently held on section1 or 2 should be classed as antiwues under section 58?


It won't be as high as 58 under the new act, it'll be Sec.12 (Antiques and Obsolete Firearms)

It will also include provisions entitling you to a state subsidized amount of black powder.


State subsidized?

Section 12


Are you smoking something?

next will you be declaring as Trident is obsolete, I can have a nuclear missile under section 36......


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Re: 2015 Law Commission 'antique' gun proposals

Postby Phil the Grips » Mon Sep 14, 2015 2:44 pm

Mark Griffin wrote:I'm assuming other hobby/special interest groups are going to be treated in the same way.

Especially so if NARES are involved since they are famed* for their inclusiveness, transparency, accessibility, communication and popularity among reenactors...

* or is it "notorious" I am thinking of?


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Re: 2015 Law Commission 'antique' gun proposals

Postby Mark Griffin » Mon Sep 14, 2015 2:52 pm

next will you be declaring as Trident is obsolete, I can have a nuclear missile under section 36......


That will make that Falklands War group very happy. However, one small slip at Detling and property values in Kent are going to plummet.


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Re: 2015 Law Commission 'antique' gun proposals

Postby acecat999 » Mon Sep 14, 2015 2:57 pm

Mark Griffin wrote:
next will you be declaring as Trident is obsolete, I can have a nuclear missile under section 36......


That will make that Falklands War group very happy. However, one small slip at Detling and property values in Kent are going to plummet.


But at War and Peace no one would notice.

State Susidised explosives though - mr Corbyns only been in opposition 48 hours.


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Re: 2015 Law Commission 'antique' gun proposals

Postby Mark Griffin » Mon Sep 14, 2015 3:02 pm

popularity among reenactors...


insert 'wild west' just before the word 'reenactors...


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Re: 2015 Law Commission 'antique' gun proposals

Postby 450 Martini » Mon Sep 14, 2015 5:58 pm

Far from relaxing the law the Police seem intent on tightening the law with their latest proposals to the Law commission which were revealed through a freedom of information request, they include:

Banning old spec deacts
Putting everything currently possessed an SGC on to section 1
Central Certification
Removal of the right to challenge decisions in court.
Requirement of a medical certificate on application (paid for by applicant)

The whole list can be found here:
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... r.pdf.html



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Re: 2015 Law Commission 'antique' gun proposals

Postby guthrie » Mon Sep 14, 2015 7:30 pm

450 Martini wrote:Far from relaxing the law the Police seem intent on tightening the law with their latest proposals to the Law commission which were revealed through a freedom of information request, they include:

Banning old spec deacts
Putting everything currently possessed an SGC on to section 1
Central Certification
Removal of the right to challenge decisions in court.
Requirement of a medical certificate on application (paid for by applicant)

The whole list can be found here:
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... r.pdf.html

That's an interesting find, but can you explain something about what the law commission is and why it is meddling in things? Which part of the police, the stupid managers or something else?



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Re: 2015 Law Commission 'antique' gun proposals

Postby acecat999 » Mon Sep 14, 2015 9:20 pm

450 Martini wrote:Far from relaxing the law the Police seem intent on tightening the law with their latest proposals to the Law commission which were revealed through a freedom of information request, they include:

Banning old spec deacts
Putting everything currently possessed an SGC on to section 1
Central Certification
Removal of the right to challenge decisions in court.
Requirement of a medical certificate on application (paid for by applicant)

The whole list can be found here:
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... r.pdf.html



ACPO are a stakeholder, its only right they make submissions for consideration.



You've paraphrased some of the above and changed their intent intent.


also... limit deacts to only those certified by one of the 2 proof houses is in there (pesky russian deacts coming over here)

And allowing unlicenced people to do clay pigeon, target shooting etc sounds like a good idea.
Till you realise that if it means you dont need a licence to go clay pigeon shooting then you wont get a licence to go clay pigeon shooting.

the law commission are trying to make firearm law less confusing..... although its an oxymoron to expect lawyers looking at law to try to change it so nonlawyers will understand law


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Re: 2015 Law Commission 'antique' gun proposals

Postby 450 Martini » Tue Sep 15, 2015 1:04 am

These suggestions come from the National Police Chiefs' Council which replaced ACPO, I was never keen on ACPO as it was a private limited company and having a private company issue policy on how the rule of law is enforced has no place in a democratic society.
Law Commission is an independent body set up by the government to review and propose changes to the law, they are holding a review of the 38 or so pieces of legislation governing firearms as they believe the legislation has become so confusing that police and public alike are having difficulty trying to act within the law
The NPCC have every right to contribute to the review so do many other stake holders. Some of the NPCC suggestions are logical but some of them in my opinion are bureaucratic, draconian and could lead to previously law abiding persons becoming criminals.

These are only suggested responses to a consultation at the moment not proposed law but they are a notice to those of us who use live, deactivated or imitation firearms as part of our hobby/work to get up from round the collective camp fire and lobby our elected representatives.



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Re: 2015 Law Commission 'antique' gun proposals

Postby acecat999 » Tue Sep 15, 2015 5:08 am

So its not the limited company (which was set up for financial liability nothing more bit like some reenactment groups are limited companies if you look) its still the same thing.... I still use terminology from the 80s occasionally.

There are a few loopholes in the law that need to be closed.
I cant mention onbe as it invokes litigation.


Problem with, as you say, getting up from around the campfire and lobbying is that the people that have done it most openly on forums, have not thought their ideas through. Its better those ideas had stayed at the campfire and been discussed. Stupid ill thought ideas, especially ones that can easily be linked as illthought out legalisation of handgun are not going to get anywhere.... arguing that you have other lethal stuff only highlights that the other lethal stuff should be restricted.
Arguing that if the law changed then anyone could buy handguns in france.... REALLY makes that a frightening concept for legislators.



(on wwiireenacting we have a similarly ill thought out person who whats us all to make representations about the
commission but didnt know what on or to what effect)

Arqubusts idea, which he hasnt changed, was to turn live firing live weapons into nonfiring antiques using solely administrative process at a time when the whole potentially fireable antique clause is being scrutinised.

If his original idea could have the starting point for s discussion instead of being dogmatic then who knows whgat ideas we as a group would of had? Wed have probably agreed to do nothing in case wemade things worse...

I written to the commission. Ive discussed the response my employee made in internal consultation. Im not overly concerned how the report of the commission will effect the majority of law abiding firearm owners... and im old and wise enough to not try to fight against change that should pass me unaffected.

the police inspectorate on the other hand think plod arent doinh enough checks on gun owners


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Re: 2015 Law Commission 'antique' gun proposals

Postby Tod » Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:59 pm

acecat999 wrote:
the police inspectorate on the other hand think plod arent doinh enough checks on gun owners


Which I tend to agree with. I heard on the news this morning about people being checked for mental health issues. I'm not a doctor but if someone has issues they shouldn't be allowed near a gun.
Then there is the fact that some re-enactors totally ignore the law. There are groups who have done no checks to see if the guns used are licenced, they turn up at sites and have no documentation to store Black Powder, they keep no records, they issue BP out to people who have not got any licences and then use the guns in a way that sooner or later is going to get someone hurt. Site mangers in general have no idea what is the law and isn't although that is changing with one big national organisation.
In the mean time some are trying to get "re-enactment" guns off certificates :wtf: What a great idea so any one can just get one and go bang because they can't be bothered with all the paperwork. In recent years some police forces are not issuing storage licences until the day before the event and then only after seeing the store site, boxes etc and the record sheets that will be used. However once that is in place the guns on site and BP could be used by anyone. It's about time all groups took ownership of the fact they have to comply and stop the idea that some have of "it's OK he's my mate" so I'll lend him this gun and give him some BP regardless of them have no paperwork or having had their licenses taken away due to medical reasons or moving house.
like the poster above I've been around long enough to know it's best to comply, comment yes but to try and rock the boat no.



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Re: 2015 Law Commission 'antique' gun proposals

Postby Sasha » Tue Sep 15, 2015 1:16 pm

acecat999 wrote:also... limit deacts to only those certified by one of the 2 proof houses is in there (pesky russian deacts coming over here)


I thought it was Tenbury Guns.....


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Re: 2015 Law Commission 'antique' gun proposals

Postby Mark Griffin » Tue Sep 15, 2015 2:25 pm

My Doctor refused to have anything to do with my applications.

"I don't know you well enough' was the answer. Cos I'm a healthy fellow. So I have to be ill (other illness available other than mental ones available of course) to go down that route. Which seems a bit lopsided. If my doctor knows me well enough to give an opinion, it may well be a negative one so that kind of defeats that way of thinking.....


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Re: 2015 Law Commission 'antique' gun proposals

Postby acecat999 » Tue Sep 15, 2015 3:34 pm

Sasha wrote:
acecat999 wrote:also... limit deacts to only those certified by one of the 2 proof houses is in there (pesky russian deacts coming over here)


I thought it was Tenbury Guns.....


Litigation danger litigation


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Re: 2015 Law Commission 'antique' gun proposals

Postby Sasha » Tue Sep 15, 2015 4:20 pm

Why? What they were doing was plastered across their website and it's obvious to even the casual observer such as myself the defence they're relying on. Will it work? Your guess is as good as mine.

I think not but I'm no lawyer. However, I'm struck by the fact that the entire deact trade with access to the same regulations left them to it.


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Re: 2015 Law Commission 'antique' gun proposals

Postby DenBruce » Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:01 am

The Law Commission’s scoping consultation paper into firearms law has been published – and it recommends that the law on firearms be completely re-codified, amid heavy lobbying from police pressure groups demanding new bans and restrictions on the lawful ownership of firearms.



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Re: 2015 Law Commission 'antique' gun proposals

Postby Sasha » Wed Feb 10, 2016 11:07 pm

The scoping document was published last July.

Obvious dangle is obvious.


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Re: 2015 Law Commission 'antique' gun proposals

Postby acecat999 » Thu Feb 11, 2016 8:48 pm

the law commissions report is being a bit stomped into the dust by the EU proposals at the moment.
who knows what will happen


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