Black Powder storage advice and regulations.

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Black Powder storage advice and regulations.

Postby Tod » Mon Apr 14, 2014 12:42 pm

There has been misinformation passed around recently about what you need if you are using Black Powder in your displays at events.
These are the facts and they come from the top police explosive officer (Danny Kay). Anything else you are told is wrong.
I'm going to keep this to events or individuals who want to keep or store 15kg or less of Black Powder. After that is gets much more complicated but you can PM me with your number and I will ring you. Note this is my opinion and you should ALWAYS check with your local police, if it conflicts with what is below let me know and I’ll ring them, or you can ask them to contact Danny Kay of Yorkshire Police.
At your home.
You will need to have exactly the right type of storage boxes here is an excellent source of design http://www.reloadingsales.webspace.virg ... torage.htm Note the maximum size of plastic bottle is 550gm not 1kg as one supplier will tell you. The maximum you can store in one box is 5kg, that means 10 bottles of 500gm each.
You need to complete an application form for a Acquire and Keep Certificate. Ring your local Firearms Unit the number is on the web somewhere, have a chat as it may be your house isn't suitable. Most Firearms Units will have someone who will advise you. All of the ones I've dealt with (which is just about every police force across the UK) have been very helpful.
Once you have been issued with your Acquire and Keep you can go and buy Black Powder and transport it. If you have an old A and K then you will need a RCA document, this in simple terms allows you to buy BP and transport it. The new A and K includes the RCA document.
Check with the police with regards to where you are going to keep your boxes in your house or out building.
Check with your vehicle insurance company that you are insured to transport Black Powder.

At an event
Some sites already have a licence or registered Black Powder store. BUT you must still apply for a Acquire and Keep Certificate in your name for the site. Contact the local Firearms Unit for the site. Either download or get them to send you a COER 1A application form. Fill it in and send it off. Give them at least three months notice or there is a chance you won’t get it back in time and that means no event. They may visit the site, some ELO’s (Explosive Licensing Officers) will not issue the certificate until the Friday of the event so make sure you have all your documents in order, your boxes are up to spec. and you have a form for signing out BP to your members (assuming you are issuing to other people). Show the ELO where you will keep your BP. Because you are keeping less than 15kg you can keep it in a guarded tent (don’t put it in the tent next to the cook fire!). The BP must be guarded at all times. If you put in a tent during the day that tent must be guarded. Make sure your members etc know where the BP is stored so some idiot doesn’t decide to use that tent for a smoke break.
If you are using a room at a site make sure the police have it registered/licensed as a store or have seen it and are happy with it. Make sure you have the keys and no one else can get access.

Bottom line
If you don’t have a A and K for the site you will not be putting on a an event. You should make sure the site/client has told the local police station that there is an event on and that there will be loud bangs, the police will give them a record number, ask them for it and keep it with your A and K. If you think the client hasn’t done it do it yourself. If you decide to hold an event with no A and K the police will come and take your BP and you will get taken down the local station. They should charge you and you will lose all your licences forever, that includes shotgun and firearms. You will be putting your group and re-enactment in general under the microscope and bring unwanted attention from the authorities. In general the police and HSE think re-enactment does an excellent job of managing Black Powder and events, let’s keep it that way.

Multi Period Events
The event manager will arrange the Black Powder store that may be via one the groups attending. If they don’t you need to wonder what sort of event they are running. There is no reason why several A and K certificates can’t be issued for one site but all of the BP can’t be stored in one place if it exceeds 15kg. Also it’s not a good idea to put all the places of storage next to each other. However the ELO will not be too keen to issue lots of A and K so it is better the event manager has arranged for licensed store and that you drop off and collect your BP there. If you arrive outside the store opening times you need to contact the BP Master for the event on arrival you CANNOT store BP overnight just because you turned up late. Those of you who are attending Kelmarsh this year will be getting extra paperwork about this (I’m Powder Master and my details will be on the paperwork you get).

The above is fairly simple. You need to keep records of what you buy and what you use, just like an in and out form. You need to keep a record of who you issue BP to and record all their details. If you get stuck I will give you copies of the documents I designed and use, these were approved by the former liaison between the HSE, Home Office and Association of Chiefs Constables. Feel free to ask question but keep it to under 15kg Black Powder, 3 day/ weekend re-enactment events, or home storage. Everything else should be via PM or on a different thread. Guesses of legislation etc will be deleted from this thread as what people want is facts and had the misinformation given out last week been circulated to the re-enactment community it would have lead to a whole lot of trouble.

For those being issued BP at events. It is always a good idea to ask to see the K and A for the event, you don't want to be in the situation where you have collected BP from an illegal store.



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Re: Black Powder storage advice and regulations.

Postby Mark Griffin » Mon Apr 14, 2014 12:53 pm

Many thanks Tod, a very useful summary.

The only point I'd add is re the 'bottom line' paragraph. Don't let the client advise the local police etc do it unless you are extremely sure they know what they are saying, are 100 % au fait with the rules and have a proven track record in this area. Ifif thats the case make sure you are copied in.

Obviously there are penalties if they get it wrong for you and the client, but its your powder, take responsibility for it yourself. I do this all the time with other weapons and from experience feel that's the best way of doing things.


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Re: Black Powder storage advice and regulations.

Postby Tod » Mon Apr 14, 2014 2:29 pm

To answer another question and to kill off another myth.
If you are taking BP to a site within the police area that you live in and are going to keep it there for the week end you MUST get a A and K for that site as well.
In simple terms you need a A and K for every site you keep BP at.



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Re: Black Powder storage advice and regulations.

Postby Fox » Mon Apr 14, 2014 2:32 pm

Tod wrote:you should ALWAYS check with your local police, if it conflicts with what is below...

It's worth noting that, in the past, local police have not always given the correct advice on this, and on occasion have refused to issue an A&K for the site.

People who have heard Danny Kay speak on this subject at OrdCon will have heard him confirm what Tod has said, and that an A&K is required for the site if powder is being stored there.

His advice was, as Tod as stated, to ask the local police to speak to him [Danny Kay of Yorkshire Police], or to contact him yourself.



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Re: Black Powder storage advice and regulations.

Postby acecat999 » Mon Apr 14, 2014 2:36 pm

Love to know areas let you leave in the car.


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Re: Black Powder storage advice and regulations.

Postby John Waller » Mon Apr 14, 2014 2:56 pm

Useful stuff Tod. Thanks. Acquire & Keep though rather than Keep & Acquire. That's what the form says. Also the link to the storage box design doesn't work for me.


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Re: Black Powder storage advice and regulations.

Postby Tod » Mon Apr 14, 2014 3:16 pm

If you search for Black Powder boxes you should come up with the link. If you still can't get them PM me your adress and I'll print some off and post to you.

Every time I have applied for a A and K I have attached a letter detailing the event, when I will arrive, when I will leave, what the BP is being used for and where if will be stored.
Edit see update posting below re vehicle storage.



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Re: Black Powder storage advice and regulations.

Postby Tod » Wed Apr 16, 2014 3:41 pm

I asked the question about storage in vehicles and this is the answer from the top man. A car, caravan or camper is a metal box and you are not meant to store in such so that counts out storing in a vehicle. Although the guidelines do say you can leave it in such whilst you take a comfort break. Bottom line is it is down to the local police but should it go bang you have ignored the guidelines. I have edited my post to reflect this information.
Where ever you keep your BP you shouldn't have any fires, cookers, heaters or fuel of any type in there.



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Re: Black Powder storage advice and regulations.

Postby Tod » Wed Apr 16, 2014 3:49 pm

Once you have your A and K for the site you are at it is good practice to put it on display when you issue BP. Thatw ay every one knows it is in force and that you have legally kept the BP on site.



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Re: Black Powder storage advice and regulations.

Postby border reiver » Tue Apr 29, 2014 11:29 am

hi Tod, the link in your first post is not working ?

Andrew



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Re: Black Powder storage advice and regulations.

Postby Tod » Tue Apr 29, 2014 2:21 pm

Try this http://www.reloadingsales.webspace.virg ... torage.htm or search for black powder storage box design. I hope that helps.



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Re: Black Powder storage advice and regulations.

Postby John Waller » Tue Apr 29, 2014 3:14 pm

My group bought a few 5kg boxes a few years ago. Very happy with them. PM me if you would like the maker's contact details.

Try also www.black-powder.co.uk/woodenbox.pdf


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Re: Black Powder storage advice and regulations.

Postby Langley » Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:44 pm

An addition. If you have both Black Powder and Pyrotechnics for an event you need two stores and two Licenses. There has to be one Powder Master responsible for both stores. You can not have separate people. Now the killer - if you have BOTH BP and Pyro the exemption from the charge for a temporary A&K does not apply and you have to pay full cost for eachlicense which is about £800.

The confusion over events in your local county where you have your own store is that you can store at your OWN store and bring in enough for each day and must remove any unused powder at the end of the day. It is as tod says, not allowable to store on site in your own county.

A lot of the problems with providing hard and fast rules is that the law makes each chief constable individually liable for interpretation. They tend to delegate to individual Chief Firearms/Explosives Liaison Officers, often civilians who then ad their own layer of interpretation. The law as written makes it imperative to talk to the ELO responsible for the area where the event is held.

Paul (Danny) Kaye worked for Northumberland Police but has in any case retired and now runs his own company (Skew Energetics Ltd) providing advice and training to all interested parties including HSE. He is however a very approachable guy. The website is http://skewenergetics.co.uk/



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Re: Black Powder storage advice and regulations.

Postby acecat999 » Wed Aug 20, 2014 7:11 pm

Langley wrote:A lot of the problems with providing hard and fast rules is that the law makes each chief constable individually liable for interpretation. They tend to delegate to individual Chief Firearms/Explosives Liaison Officers, often civilians who then ad their own layer of interpretation. The law as written makes it imperative to talk to the ELO responsible for the area where the event is held.



don't assume just because your ELO trusts you implicitly or has an adversion to paperwork that any of the others do.


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Re: Black Powder storage advice and regulations.

Postby de Coverley » Mon Dec 01, 2014 7:48 pm

Danny Kaye is an excellent guy, anyone with A&K or even just acquire should visit Ordcon each year. The information is great and well presented and the lunch is superb.



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Re: Black Powder storage advice and regulations.

Postby Edmund the Marshal » Thu Aug 27, 2015 10:16 am

I've had a look online for Ordcon but can't find any details for 2015 or have I missed it this year?


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Re: Black Powder storage advice and regulations.

Postby Merlon. » Thu Aug 27, 2015 2:25 pm

If Ordcon 2015 geos ahead, I believe it will be late October this year.
There is a change of venue as the previous free site would now charge a large fee due to budget cutbacks.



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Re: Black Powder storage advice and regulations.

Postby de Coverley » Thu Aug 27, 2015 9:07 pm

ORDCON tends to be organised at very short notice but it was always in October, just when fireworkers are busy! The organisers certainly used to be senior members of the Institute of Explosives Engineers ( iexpe.org ) who's office may be able to assist with the current contact details.




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Re: Black Powder storage advice and regulations.

Postby John Waller » Fri Aug 28, 2015 9:34 am

Ordcon does have a Facebook page but nothing has been added since January. Worth joining so you will get notification.


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Re: Black Powder storage advice and regulations.

Postby John Waller » Wed Sep 02, 2015 10:07 pm

Ordcon 2015 24th October, Hindlip Hall Police HQ WR3 8SP

A very appropriate place:-)


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Re: Black Powder storage advice and regulations.

Postby de Coverley » Wed Sep 02, 2015 10:54 pm

One can only hope that the refreshments are up to Surrey Police standards.



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Re: Black Powder storage advice and regulations.

Postby John Waller » Fri Oct 16, 2015 9:38 am

Word to the wise - watch your backs! Some low-life sh** has sent an anonymous letter to my local Firearms Licensing dept. making completely unfounded and unsubstantiated accusations against myself and two others over illegal acquisition and use of black powder. Which led to an interesting interview this week!

No idea who did it but obviously someone who knows the three named well enough to have our addresses.

What goes around comes around matey. Karma will out.


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Re: Black Powder storage advice and regulations.

Postby Mark Griffin » Fri Oct 16, 2015 10:02 am

Sorry to hear about that John, what a git.


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Re: Black Powder storage advice and regulations.

Postby Mark Griffin » Fri Oct 16, 2015 10:03 am

Sorry to hear about that John, what a git.
Last edited by Mark Griffin on Sat Dec 26, 2015 10:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Black Powder storage advice and regulations.

Postby acecat999 » Fri Oct 16, 2015 11:53 am

John Waller wrote:Word to the wise - watch your backs! Some low-life sh** has sent an anonymous letter to my local Firearms Licensing dept. making completely unfounded and unsubstantiated accusations against myself and two others over illegal acquisition and use of black powder. Which led to an interesting interview this week!

No idea who did it but obviously someone who knows the three named well enough to have our addresses.

What goes around comes around matey. Karma will out.


Equally refreshing that the plod followed up allegations of a serious offence....

and I dont know where you live... but such info isnt that hard to find from electoral rolls etc


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Re: Black Powder storage advice and regulations.

Postby John Waller » Fri Oct 16, 2015 8:36 pm

I agree such things should be followed up and in my case it was done so professionally and with courtesy. No case to answer. I think 'anonymous' says it all about the 'concerned' author of the malicious letter. Spineless sh**.


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Re: Black Powder storage advice and regulations.

Postby Mark Griffin » Sun Jan 24, 2016 4:54 pm

Anyone got the Channel Islands rules? Specifically looking at the making small amounts rule. if they even have one...


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Re: Black Powder storage advice and regulations.

Postby acecat999 » Mon Jan 25, 2016 10:59 am

Ring jersey or guernsey HSE or plod.

Jersey and guernsey have their own legislator which although it often mirrors the mainland sometimes doesnt.

I could tell you about it but its easier from the horses mouth.. They do have regular reenactments.

You can own a machinegun on jersey. Legally. Worry more how you will get explosives onto island on a ferry.


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Re: Black Powder storage advice and regulations.

Postby Mark Griffin » Mon Jan 25, 2016 12:26 pm

Most of their fac and explosives laws underwent a revision 2 years ago but its not published anywhere that i can find. I'm familiar with the bp shooters over there, but they prob wouldn't know the rules on making for a demo.

Interestingly when they did an fac audit they found a chap with 360 for them!

You can dream.....


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