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15c order of service

Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 11:39 am
by edy
Any suggestions for where I can find a copy of a latin 15c mass or other church services please?

I know the service changed arund then and the earlier versions proabaly weren't standardised or had local variations but I'm struggling to find any copy of the service / words they would have used.

Any other church wording would also be useful. I've found the latin version of 'Hail Mary' and I suspect it hasn't changed in 15c but any other info would be good.

We're trying to introduce some religion into the LH camp and I'm hoping others who portray monks/nuns will already have the info/research I need please.

Thanks.

Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 11:51 am
by Adam the Archer
Hi

My understanding is that there was regional variation in the British Isles, but the most widely used was the Sarum Rite, which had some anomalies in ceremonial from the Roman usage.
There are a couple of basic links below from a Google search, but I will do some more digging for you:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13479a.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarum_Rite#The_Sarum_Mass

If you want to do some research into what pre-reformation religion was like in England, the Eamon Duffy's 'Stripping of the Altars' is a good book.

Adam

Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 11:57 am
by Adam the Archer
Here are the ordinaries of the Sarum Mass in Latin and English:

http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bc ... dinary.htm (latin)

http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bc ... nglish.htm

Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:56 pm
by edy
Fantastic - exactly what I was after - many thanks! :D

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:38 pm
by Marcus Woodhouse
Not sure I like the idea of people "reenacting" a real service.

Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 7:43 am
by Skevmeister
Marcus,

I can't see that its a problem really, most of the church has been just going through the motions now for 600 years so a re enactor doing it won't be any different.

Amd if the re-eanctor is Christian it even matters less as its still praise to God, or does the clergy still try to hang on to that out moded belief that they are the only ones who can talk to god.

Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:52 pm
by Hinny Annie
Actually Marcus I'm with you on that one

Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:10 pm
by Skevmeister
Annie

I still don't see the problem really, it is no different than people re-enacting monks.
Pagans wearing rosaries.
People doing fake weddings.

A service is all words.

It's not the words that are sacred, just the sentiment.

And if it's a Sunday Morning lay preacher or a re-enactor who does it, if all they are to them are words then nothing is lost.

Alixx

Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:47 pm
by lidimy
And to the people for whom they aren't just words, it's an insult. I'm with Marcus on this one too. I disagree that the words aren't sacred, too; seeing as a lot of liturgy and hymns come straight out the Bible.

Lidi :)

Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 2:02 pm
by Mark P.
Seems strange to object to the re-enactment of the religious aspects life from past times while happily indulging in (or watching) the recreation of mass killings in battle with either bullet, bow or blade, assuming the objectors do military re-enactment.

:?

MP

Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 2:15 pm
by Alan E
Obviously time to proclaim a fatwa* on Skev. :twisted:













*Sorry, that'd be an anathema for us ... Would you care Skev? :roll:

Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 2:20 pm
by Skevmeister
Lidi,

You and Annie may be with Marcus on this one, but I don't think that its wrong and I am sure that many other people won't find offensive either. Considering people want to recreate all aspects of medieval life and that Mass was a major part of that and that anyone who wishes to do it as correctly as possible should do so.

I don't think that anyone else's opinions on this should be enforced on Edy's request. The request was not meant for an opinion on whether it is right or wrong but for information.

Speaking personally I would hope that no one on this forum would try to enforce their religious beliefs on anyone else.

And finally to your comments about liturgys and the bible they are still only words, words that were changed over time, and words that were edited to mean other things and are still edited to match 20th century thinking so its not the words that are important but the concepts. In fact a lot of pantheonic religions don't actually have writings at all. They have stories.

Alixx :)

Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 2:26 pm
by Skevmeister
Alan E wrote:Obviously time to proclaim a fatwa* on Skev. :twisted:
*Sorry, that'd be an anathema for us ... Would you care Skev? :roll: :shock: :D
Mate,

I look at this way God hates me, the Devil Doesn't want the competition and Purgatory doesn't require a union.

Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 2:36 pm
by Lady Phoenix
I have to say I'm with Skev on this one, the mass wouldn't be reenacted in a 'comical' or disrespectful way, surely? We as reenactors don't do that, we try to do things as accurately as is possible. Which would bring it to life for the mops, which can only be a good thing, it would add an extra dynamic to the event. The words of the mass have been changed umpteen times over the years anyway, its only words. The meaning is in the heart.

Sorry, bit of a Cuba moment there.

Nix

Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 2:44 pm
by lidimy
Why don't we make a new thread? :D

It's an important enough subject, IMO, to be discussed in full as it seems that a lot of groups are going this way?

Lidi (:

Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 3:25 pm
by guthrie
I'm sure we discussed this before, and maybe now the idea has reached its time, i.e. enough people are interested to consider doing it properly, for it to take place. I know Edy, and I'm sure that anything she does with this will not be done in a silly fashion.

Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 3:59 pm
by Hinny Annie
Skevmeister wrote:Lidi,

You and Annie may be with Marcus on this one, but I don't think that its wrong and I am sure that many other people won't find offensive either.

Speaking personally I would hope that no one on this forum would try to enforce their religious beliefs on anyone else.

Alixx :)

Alixx

I never said it was offensive, just that I agreed with Marcus, and he never said it was either. I have never ever enforced my religious beliefs on anyone and you dont even know what my beliefs are

Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:16 pm
by Skevmeister
Annie,

I wasn't saying that you would force you beliefs nor was I saying that Marcus or Lidi was in fact.

But it has happened on this forum before and I was just putting a cautionary warning for others.

You would have too see that as at the same time you say that I do not know your beliefs which I don't.
You,Lidi and Marcus felt it was necessary to pass comment on Edy's request, about how it made you all feel uncomfortable. Edy didn't ask how people felt about it at all. Just did somebody know where to get the mass.

All the comments made without knowing what or how they feel about things. How devout they are about the Christian faith.
After all, for all we know, they could feel strongly enough to actually want to do mass in Latin the way it used to be done.

Like I say Annie, I've met you and your husband and your both lovely people. I just didn't think that the comments where relevant at all to the request and whether they meant to or not had a wiff of censure about them.

Alixx

Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 7:21 pm
by lidimy
Sorry - didn't mean to Cuba the thread, apologies! (: Hence suggestion to start new thread... (:

Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 11:44 am
by Skevmeister
Lidi,

Is cool really, I think you should start a new thread I think your irght it is quite and important one and something that we can discuss from across all faiths.

I just didn't want to finish it with people think I was calling their faith into question or trying to be insulting.

Alixx

Re: 15c order of service

Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 12:57 pm
by DeviantShrub
edy wrote:Any suggestions for where I can find a copy of a latin 15c mass or other church services please?
This book is excellent:

"Mass and Parish in Late Medieval England: The Use of York" by P.S. Barnwell, Claire C. Cross, and Ann Rycraft

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mass-Parish-Lat ... 543&sr=1-4

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:14 pm
by StaffordCleggy
Marcus Woodhouse wrote:Not sure I like the idea of people "reenacting" a real service.
Marcus, not trying to be funny or owt mate, but what is the difference between someone 're-enacting' a C15th religious service, & the Pagan religious ceremonies you observed when being a 'Celtic' re-enactor?

If it is because it is your strongly held faith, then what about those who believe just as strongly in the Pagan Gods?

You yourself have stated that you had no problem portraying a worshipper of Bel after all.

I doubt very much that anyone would want to do it in a denigratory way, but it was in integral part of life for the C15th person.

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 5:15 pm
by Marcus Woodhouse
I agree omae, though I doubt Skev would call what we did to be a "real" pagan rite. Actually my Faith has nothing to do with it. I passed a full comment about it on the linked thread. Finally as someone who goes to Mass twice a week normally I have to say it ain't really worth watching. If you're taking part for the right reason then it is but as entertaqinment it's prettty shoddy. :?

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 5:26 pm
by StaffordCleggy
After having been to several Catholic weddings & unfortunately two Catholic funerals i can heartily agree!

Mind you, a full Orthodox Ukrainian funeral takes some beating, especially when you haven't a clue whats going on....

Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 7:41 pm
by Marcus Woodhouse
I have no problem with re-enacting the religious aspects of the period, I just wonder if saying or acting out a Masss is the way to do it, thats all.

Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 10:29 pm
by StaffordCleggy
To be honest, i reckon doing a proper Mass wouldn't hold the interest of either the public or the re-enactors themselves. I'm no expert on the Catholic Mass but i would suspect it would go on far too long for this current crowd - lack of attention span perhaps? :wink:
something could be done though, & it would impart a flavour or the religious beliefs of the time without alienating or boring large parts of our audience (kids for example.)

*NB. This is not in any way meant to slander the Catholic Faith BTW.