Maciejowski bible

Historic questions, thoughts and other interesting stuff

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
Paddy
Posts: 25
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2006 7:16 pm
Location: Birmingham Uni

Maciejowski bible

Post by Paddy »

Hello all,
Just a quicky, and I feel a bit stupid asking it, but would feel stupider if I was wrong. If I spot something in it that looks like a fun piece of kit, can it be taken as correct for 1248-78 (given the ~1250 date of creation)?

I ask as I'm loking at this detail section

Image

and had assumed (without checking back) that by this point a nasal-type helm was made from one piece of metal, but both of these are from sections, and the chap on the left appears to have a more rounded than pointed helm (forgive the lack of technical terms :oops: ).

What it all boils down to is, I've been offered a rounded nasal made from sections (2 if I remeber it right), and am wondering if it would do for 1248-78, using this as a justification.
War's long done. We're all just folk now.

User avatar
Simon_Diment
Posts: 148
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 3:48 pm
Location: Nottingham
Contact:

Post by Simon_Diment »

Be careful Paddy, if you pay careful attention to the Maciejowski bible then you'll see that the 'hero' characters are generally dressed in the most modern kit available for the period while the ungodly are dressed in archaic fashions.

The spangen helm would possible have still been in use for the lower ranks would would have been practically an antique design.

Cheers

Simon

Would recommend getting your hands on 'Old Testament Miniatures' which reprints a large chunk of the bible.
Bitter and Twisted IS a lifestyle option!
www.angevin.org

Paddy
Posts: 25
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2006 7:16 pm
Location: Birmingham Uni

Post by Paddy »

Spangen helm, that's the b**ger! :D

Hmmm, the warning is appreciated, thanks. As I'm sure everyone's sick of hearing, I'm trying to go for a sergeant on foot, and the Orders were short of materials, being pretty keen on making sure arms and armour went east and stayed there - but still too modern for one then?
War's long done. We're all just folk now.

User avatar
gregory23b
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2923
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:46 pm
Location: Gyppeswyk, Suffolk

Post by gregory23b »

Also the man on the right, his helmet looks more pointed because the blakc outline is thicker and wonkier, that variation is IMHO accidental not intentional, esp if you see the right hand side of it has thinner outlines, even the best illustrators have wobbly moments.
middle english dictionary

Isabela on G23b "...somehow more approachable in real life"

http://medievalcolours.blogspot.com

"I know my place." Alice the Huswyf

User avatar
Colin Middleton
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2037
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:31 pm
Location: Sheffield
Contact:

Post by Colin Middleton »

I'd say that for a sergeant, you're probably okay. The rounded top indicates a later form of 'nut helm' and I think that cheaper helms of the period could still be made in 2 pieces. For 1278, you're probably better off looking at barrel helms and kettle hats, though I think that 'nut' and spangen helms were used (with decreasing popularity) through the whole 13th C.

I'd take a closer look at what the heros are wearing though.

Colin
Colin

"May 'Blood, blood, blood' be your motto!"

Image

User avatar
Andreas
Posts: 60
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 8:14 pm
Location: The Holy Roman Empire
Contact:

Post by Andreas »

I would agree with Colin and go for an early kettlehat, especially for an orders sergeant. Several German manuscripts show kettlehats with assembled four-piece calotte at least as early as 1220.

And I find it hard to imagine that even in the West the kit given out to professional Templars and Hospitallers would not have been of current technological standards - even though the British island at the time might have been slightly behind the continental development.

In my personal opinion I would deem nasal helmets OK for professional foot troops up to 1220, and for non-professional troops maybe up to 1250 - 70ish (stretching it). In remote areas (Wales, Scotland, Ireland) possibly longer, but there I am speculating somewhat.

Might also be entirely wrong, can only base it on my understanding of things.
Quanti Adversarii + Tantus Honor

Post Reply