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Postby Cat » Thu Aug 17, 2006 5:12 pm

Stannerlees (Thomas Stanleys). They can probably point a courier in my direction.


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Postby gregory23b » Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:49 am

thanks Cat, rocks received, much appreciated.


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Postby Cat » Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:12 am

It was very funny trying to find the courier. He found me, sans rocks,then I promptly forgot who he was, and spent some of Sunday morning asking various bemused happy campers about a rock-courier...did get rid of a chunk of rock on one intrigued lady, who actually managed to point me in the right direction!

Glad it is of some use, have been vaguely worrying that I was palming off useless chunks of red stone. Some of it has purply tinges-do these come across in the powder, or is it all a uniformish red?

The kids who I took to the quarry when we first found it spent the day daubed with beautiful tawny body paint.


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Postby gregory23b » Sun Sep 10, 2006 8:55 pm

I haven't ground it and purified it yet, I will give you my verdict in due course, even send a sample. Might yield a nice colour but it might not have any body or lose its colour upon grinding, loads fo variables, lots of fun.

Always worth a quick grind I feel.


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Postby gregory23b » Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:52 pm

Medieval European ink

Source: various medieval treatises.

In brief, mainly this is iron salts and tannin based, carbon was sometimes used to supplement the iron gall ink.

We see documents as being written in brown ink, this is even the description used by archaeologists and experts in selling manuscripts. This is misleading IMHO, because when they were written they were black, the ink has a tendency to go brown if too acidic, the items were not written in brown ink, if you see what I mean.

Ingredients
Oak galls - half a pound (this is a lot of oak galls as they are not very dense)

Water (pre-boiled if you live in a hard water area) 3 pints

Jar that holds more than 4 pints

Ferrous or enamel pan, *do not use aluminium*

Ferrous sulphate - available in powder form from garden centres, as a soil supllement.

Gum arabic (from art shops)

Process

Wrap galls in a cloth, bash until crushed.

Put galls into jar and cover with water, leave for at least a week, two is good.

After this time the gall particles should have sunk to the bottom.

Decant, through a fine cloth, slowly into your ferrous or enamel pan

Slwoly bring the liquor to a strong simmer.

Add two tablespoons of ferous sulphate, str until dissolves.

The smell is very distinctive, a metallic odour, the water will tunr a grey almost immediately, you will also see a black metallic scum appear on the surface, this is good. Reduce the liquid to at least half its orginal volume, or until you are happy with the density of your ink.

From time to time check the strength of the ink, use a matchstick, dip into liquor and scibble on a piece of paper, do not get the metallic scum on it as it will show a false reading, stir before you dip.

Even from early on you will see your initial efforts go dark before your eyes, the reaction happens in the pan and upon exposure to the air.

I only think of it as ink when the ink is black, ie well reduced, some prefer it less dense as it does darken on the page to a degree, it will also darken with age in the jar.

When happy with the blackness add about three tablespoons of gum arabic to the reduced liquor, say it is about a pint at this stage.

Let it cool, put in airtight jar. You have ink.

Notes:

This type of ink is a dye, it is a chemical solution made between the reaction of the iron ions from the ferrous sulphate with the tannins from the galls, it stains the parchment and paper (also a cloth dye).

The gum arabic is to give the ink body, not to stick it to the page, it does not need that, see above. The gum makes the ink more viscous, allowing better flourishes and reduced flooding from the pen, it also imparts a nice lustre to written works on parchmet.

The ink is cheap but takes a bit of time, just think, a pint of ink will go a long way, so you could sell some.

A quicker but dearer alternative:


Two bottles of highly tannined red or white wine

ferrous sulphate

ferrous or enamel pan

gum arabic

Method

Pour wine into pan, slowly bring to the simmer.
Add two tablespoons of ferrous sulphate
allow to dissolve, reduce and test for density.

When reduced, add gum arabic, as previously.

Not cheaper but quicker, and if you just happen to buy say three bottles of wine, you wont need all of them and I reckon watching ink reduce is pretty boring, possibly a bottle of wine's worth, just a thought.

There are hundreds of variations in medieval sources, they have two things in common though:

tannin

iron

Notes:

If your ink is too acidic, say you might choose to add more ferrous sulphate in (it speeds up the process) the ik may well go brown in a short time.

It may also eat through your paper.

The brown it goes is a specific brown and nothing like the sepia inks of later periods.

if you see anyone writing in brown ink, merely shake your head and walk on and leave them to it.


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Postby gregory23b » Wed Sep 20, 2006 2:52 pm

Dyeing leather red

Source, a number of late medieval treatises, Bologna MSS being one.

This is much trial and error and according to how much red you want.

Start with a quarter of a pound of brazil wood rasped fine.

Put this into four pints of previously boiled water

Add three tablespoons of alum powder

Bring to a strong simmer, lower heat and let it slowly simmer for at least an hour, the longer the better. You don't want the liquid reducing, so top up with a small amount of water every so often.

When you are happy with the redness, set aside and then cool.

Strain the liquor through a fine cloth (well fulled wool is good for this), squeeze gently, put this into a shallow square flat bottomed bowl if you are submerging the leather. If so, do it all in one go as the leather soaks up the dye very readily and if you leave airpockets you will get undyed spaces which show up when overdyed - submerge as flat as possible.

Depending on what you are dyeing will govern how much dye to make, also how big the vat, the above is for book bindings, small items of leather and shoes.

One recipe calls for the liquid to be painted on the visible surface of the leather, this makes sense due to the cost of the material and why dye what you wont see?

This works fine, but make sure you don't leave too long a gap between brush strokes, you don't want visible lines where the strokes meet.

Another method calls for the leather you will use to be sewn into a bag shape, hair side inwards, this has to be sewn close and a small hole left big enough to pour the liquor in.

tie up the hole, and manipulate the sack.

Again this is an economical move, I haven't tried that one as yet.

The leather I dyed now resides at Hampton Court as a soft wrap book binding (I submerge that as the leather was not that huge a piece), the colour is remarkably bright, it is subdued once dry, but a wipe with some beeswax/turps paste and it brightens up a lot, similarly use linseed oil and buff it up.


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Postby gregory23b » Thu Sep 21, 2006 5:08 pm

Glue: a sticky subject.

Lots of glues in the middle ages, some water based some oil based.

Sources: mainly Cennini but these appear elsewhere, eg Strasbourg MSS

Era: certainly ealry medieval onwards, more than likely into antiquity.

A quick over view and sample set.

Water based:

Size - animal glue, made from the boilings of cartilage, bones and hide, also from parchment clippings.

Basically gelatine, although factory rendered gelatine is said to be weaker, I haven't found that to be the case and it is the same as the speciality gelatine that costs a lot more.

Don't bother making this at home as it is very smelly and needs a lot of pans and bits and cleaning. Boiling parchment clippings is easier.

But shop bought baking gelatine is ok.

Some say use rabbit skin glue, this is not 'medieval' ie there seems scant mention of any particular animal, it is just called glue, RSG also stinks like a fatigued tramp, not needed really.

Whilst in granular form it is not usable in front of the public, you can make it so.

Make up a strong jelly, one sachet to one pint of warm water, let set, then slice thinly and dry on a smooth surface, like a glass sheet. It is harder to dry gelatine lumps in the summer, although drier it tends to go off rather rapidly (and if too warm, melt), cooler breezier weather is recommended.

When dry it should be gently peeled off the glass and wrapped in paper. Depending on how thick your initial slices were will dictate whether you have a thick plastic or thin plastic (it ends up transparent).

You can use these thin pieces to stick paper together by simply licking them or immersing in water for a brief time until they soften, they become a jelly-glue pad. or you can save them up to make a jelly recipe.

The advantage of gelatine is that it is a foodstuff and edible, RSG is not, at least it mings enough to put you right off.

This glue can also be used to make gesso/chalk grounds and to paint with, depending on consistency and eventual use.

Gum:
Secretions from trees such as Acacias, where we get gum arabic, this was an imported item, not prohibitively expensive but something you could do without it you had to.

Uses:
paint medium - water based, holds colour well, gives lustre to paint.
as a viscosity enhancer for ink, see previous entry.

Comes in bulbous lumps, needs soaking and straining before use.

Easy to get hold of, esp via Pete the Pong.

Possibly also use cherry gum, although it is said to be more slimy.

If left in liquid form too long it goes mouldy.

'Cheese' glue
Cheese with the fat washed out of it, mixed with a strong alkali, often lime (the quick corrosive sort, not the fruit) and a bit of water. This can be used to glue wood to wood, it is apparently very strong. Not madeit as I don't need it, but the process seems straightforward in most mentions.

I have seen a skimmed milk variant with lye, on TV, Saxon history, can't verify it, but it had the same principle, he made a thin glue to paste down a hide over his shield.

Oil based glues

These are made primarily from boiled linseed oil and rosin (colophony) or other resinous saps.

Basically this is the oil/resin varnish, the thicker it is the better it is for sticking things like small tin devices to walls or panels.

There are lots of these, too many to mention.

Suffice to say that the process is hazardous and should only be exectued with caution.

Method:

Boil some linseed oil and some resin, practice and requirements will tell you how much, but for argument sake a pint of oil to a 1/4 lb of resin will be very useful.

Use a tallish metal (brass or copper is good) vessel, you don't want flames any where near the top of the pot as the vapours are highly flammable, so keep the flames low, or better still hot embers. I made some last year over an open fire and it was ok as long as the pot was kept simmering. The advantage of using pre-boiled linseed oil is that you don't really need to boil it to 'thicken' it, so all you are doing is dissolving the rosin into the oil and then keeping it going for at least half to one hour.

As it is a bit risky to do in public, best do it at home using a gas ring (outside), that way the heat is much more controllable.

It has an unusual if sickly smell to it, the nice pine resin smell gives way to a sweetish odour, not quite right with me.

Oh if you use a metal vessel it will clean up ok, use a brillo pad and some wood ashes, plenty of water, scrub, rinse and repeat until no longer greasy.

It is notable that all the above with the exception to the cheese glue are all paint media too, after all a medium is just sticky stuff to keep the paint from falling off.
Last edited by gregory23b on Thu Nov 16, 2006 12:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Postby Colin Middleton » Mon Sep 25, 2006 1:43 pm

Does the red dye smudge easily or does it 'stick' well?


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Postby gregory23b » Mon Sep 25, 2006 3:33 pm

The brazil is a dye so doesn't smudge, ie it is not a surface colour liek some modern leather paints.

I would use as light a colour leather as possible to better effect.

Brazil is not that light fast so will fade with time, it may change its hue, but that is normal.

The wax helps protect it a fair bit though, make sure you have a good strong dye.


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Postby Alan E » Mon Sep 25, 2006 4:12 pm

Anything orfentik for dying leather blue guru?


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Postby gregory23b » Mon Sep 25, 2006 5:33 pm

Indigo, the sludge not the mixture for dyeing.

Boil the indigo in lye for the space of one miserere, remve from fire, add some alum and then let cool.

Use a cloth to apply to the leather, the recipe talks about chamois, but another just mentions leather.

This is a stain rather than a full on dye like the Brazil, talk to a dyer as to why, ie it will rub off if not fixed.

Also ask a dyer if synthetic indigo will work the same way, I do have a load of that so may well make some blue things to try it out.

I would still seal it with some oil/wax thing as it brings the leather to a nice lustre.

Use the G word and there will be ructions. grrrrrr


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Postby Gwen » Sun Oct 08, 2006 6:49 am

A damp piece of cloth placed over a plate of food keeps flies off and whats underneath it nice all day.

Melt a small amount of beeswax in an old skillet. Dredge a piece of thin linen through the wax until soaked through, then lay out on kitchen foil or waxed paper to cool. The waxed linen makes a fantastic cover for just about anything from paint to food. I have a bunch of different sizes to cover pitchers, bowls of food, spices, condiments, etc.

Hold the cover over a heat source (careful, remember you're heating what amounts to a large wick) until softened, then use to cover anything you want. The wax sticks to the container and makes a nice seal. This is a great way to cover things like poached pears and blancmenger that are made early and eaten later in the day. Apparently, waxed covers were used in rural areas until the early years of the 1900s.

Use powdered oats as a thickener for gravies and sauces. I read a speculation in one of my historical cooking books (Pleyn Delit or Ordinance of Pottage maybe?) that the small amounts of rice and oats purchased for kitchen use were used as thickeners, so I tried it. I like the powdered oats so much I use it in all of my cooking. It has no flavour of its own that I can detect, and a little goes a long way. It doesn't taste "gummy" like flour sometimes does, and isn't grainly like bread crumbs. I use quick oats reduced to powder in my coffee grinder.

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Postby Mark Griffin » Sun Oct 08, 2006 10:57 am

surprising that gregory has not used cheese lime glue. What about all those altar pieces in production so the lowly man at arms can turn his/her tent into a house of the lord?

We've used it down here in weird stuff world and its fab of course. I expect when the wood has become worm food in a few centuries the hardened glue will be soldiering on.


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Postby gregory23b » Tue Oct 10, 2006 9:05 am

I haven't used because I have had no need to join wood, the recipe is up there though.

When I come to joining boards I will, rest assured use some old washed out cheddar and quicklime, yummy.


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Postby gregory23b » Thu Oct 12, 2006 9:29 am

Sealing wax

This is a basic recipe culled from a few late medieval sources:

Ingredients:

beeswax
Colophony - small lumps
pigment - black, vermillion or green (all used) or none at all
tin foil or a nice non-stick baking sheet

roughly 1:4 resin to beeswax

Method

slowly bring the wax to the melt and stir in the colophony until dissolved, when so add the pigment, you wont need much, start off with a tea spoon full for a quarter pound of wax, not all seals seem to be fully coloured is some appear to have justy enough to colour them - bear in mind pigment is a cost (medievally speaking).

Once thoroughly mixed slowly pour the mixture out onto your tin foil or baking sheet, let it become a thin sheet (cools quicker). When set remove from the sheet and cut it into say 2 inch wide strips and roll them.

The notable characteristic of this wax is its pliability, the resin, although harder than the wax to start actually makes the wax easier to manipulate.

Your little red, black, green or plain rolls are now ready for use, you can melt some over a flame or you can break a piece off and soften it in the hands, when soft enough use your seal matrix.

You might also try reversing the proportions, this will give a harder wax.

Also such things as sulphur were used as seals, but given the fumes I wouldn't bother.

H and S
Please note that Colophony in dust form is not good for the old lungs*, so use a mask and move the bits in a stable wind free place, ie let the dust settle rather than blow about.

* over a period of time, it is used in aquatint etching and precautions have to be taken when using it in dust form.

Also similar when handling any dust hazard, such as the pigments.

Medieval sealing wax is not like the wax we buy from shops, that is a much later recipe using shellac and limestone, there is no wax in it.

Medieval sealing wax has a very different lustre and sheen to that of the shop bought and is not as brittle. I used to use the modern stuff but since finding out how relatively easy the real stuff is to make I don't anymore.


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Postby Colin Middleton » Fri Nov 03, 2006 1:25 pm

I bought some brazil wood to try the red leather dye. While I was there, I was told of a cheap wood stain that apparently produces a really penetrating (i.e. deep into the wood), bright red wood-stain.

Thanks to the Mulbery Dyer for this one:

Take some fresh horse manure and place it in a large seive (e.g. a bucket with holes in the bottom). Leave it to hang for a few days and collect the liquid that runs off. If the manure starts to get a bit dry, top it up with horse urine to keep it liquid. I beleive that the resulting fluid acts as the wood stain. I've not tried this and am not inclined to either. :shock:

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Postby gregory23b » Mon Nov 06, 2006 10:33 am

They love recounting that one, horse p*ss/poo red.

I shall have to discuss a commission rate for the brazil wood trade with her (joke), she supplie me with my magic red wood chips.

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Postby wibble puppy » Mon Jan 29, 2007 7:23 pm

hey gregory, does your oak gall ink go off if kept too long? griff's does - also i think he may be using too much gum, as when i use it to mark up the warp strings of the ol' tapestry it gets brushed off after a few brisk passes of the weft, and leaves only the faintest stain on the warps - GRRRR as it takes yonks and yonks to apply it :evil:

Re cheese lime glue:

1. Best cheese to use is cheshire (I'm told that this is pretty close to medieval-stylee cheese too)

2. Don't leave the cheese in the water too long (more than 18 hours or so depending on the weather) as it rots and smells like nothing on earth. If it reaches this point the glue won't work.

3. Powdered quicklime, which is what you need, is available only via specialist suppliers and is counted as a dangerous chemical (because it is) - you'll need to sign a special thingy saying you take responsibility for it. Not something to have at events, or not exposed to the air anyway. I have a stash if anyone wants some.

4. It's a very strong cement but not an adhesive.

Re hide glue: here's a fab site if you want to find out all there is to know about its properties and how to use it http://www.player-care.com/hideglue.html Jolly interesting, even though I don't understand a fair bit of the techie stuff.

Must try the horse poo dye some time :D

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Postby gregory23b » Mon Jan 29, 2007 9:14 pm

Sometimes it does, depends on the batch and how much organic matter is left in it. The gum is organic as are the residues, but jakc Greene uses a clove to keep it fresh, although I have not seen that as a medieval source, however as there are hundreds of ink recipes it woudl not surprise me.

Basicalyl th emore ferrous sulphate and the more pure the tannin liquid the better.

yes a crumbly cheese sounds right, although I have heard of dry swetaed cheeses being used too.

Griff did mention the lime being a bit nasty, however I will be trying some made out of cheese and lye, caustic soda being that bit easier to get.

thanks for the article m'lady, the descriptions match much of the prep for sizing wood, ie a weak size to create a seal then the stronger stuff.

He is also correct re the glue pulling glass, I left some in a ceramic dish and found bits of glaze had pulled out upon drying. Although I use normal gelatine, I might bother to boil up a hide at an event say for the hell of it, but then I am not doing joinery.

How is the car, painted yet?


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Postby wibble puppy » Mon Jan 29, 2007 9:47 pm

Van. It's painted, but I have to put everything back together now - engine needs some stuff doing, and I'll be restoring all the mechanical bits. I know how a carburettor works 8)



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Postby Colin Middleton » Tue Apr 03, 2007 1:06 pm

What about the red leather dye? Does that need using quickly, or can a make a pot up and use it when I want to?

As for the ink, can you use strong tea in place of the red wine? I seem to remember being told that the relevant chemicals are present in both.


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Postby gregory23b » Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:32 am

The red dye, well, to be honest all the red dye I have ever stored goes off, it can go mouldy, worse still its pH can change over time, this causes the dye to change colour and precipitate into insoluble bits.

Given that the dye takes about half an hour to an hour max to prepare, you might be better served making it as you need to.

It will store for a few days, but not for any real length of time, mind that is my experience and due to us having hard water, which makes it more alkaline than it wants to be. There will be different answers.

Tea, not used it, not sure how much tannin there is in it compared to wine or gall, that would be the main issue, the tannin quantity, I suspect tannic acid from the dyer's suppliers would do the same trick.

What you do get is the smells from the constituent ingredients, wine based ink smells winey, gall - just a metallic smell, so be careful you don't write with darjeeling :D


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Postby Neibelungen » Thu Apr 05, 2007 10:23 am

Couple of notes on staining and dying leather.

The tannin in tea has a different chemical formula to the tannins found in oak galls. So although it will work it's not going to be quite as good as a proper tannin made up. You can get oak galls in powder form, which saves on the boiling time somewhat (usually a couple of hours in unpowdered form), but you can reboil the galls several times to get new solutions.

Brazilwood and logwood make a very good red, and is quite usefull as a underbase layer to get a good black. However it doesn't make it's appearance till the late 15th century and then initially through spanish and portugese leathers. So really unless high status and late you should be using a more traditional dye source like mader. Towards the end of the period you can also get dyes from plant sources like Sappanwood coming in from India, as well as different versions of cochineal and some types of lichens and mosses.

Brighter reds work better with tin or alum mordants and iron can be used to 'sadden' or darken the colours. Later 18th/19th C leather dying texts talk about applying more than one application of dyes and mordants with often a tannin or laterly a summach soak first and tannin coats after mordanting to develop any residual colours.

Essentially all leather dying is going to be the same as fabric dying, you can fix the mordanting into the leather beforehand and afterwards. Be careful with over-mordanting with iron though as this is noted as causing brittleness and cracking in leather. It's worth bearing in mind that the ph of your water will have a difference to the colour and depth of the final dye shade and leather dyers are noted for adding small amounts of acetic acid and ammonia to solutions. It seems that's why often found the acetic acid-ferous oxide route was better for a black.

The one thing to check is if dressings have been put into your leather first (though not usually a problem with most veg-tans), but does sometimes occur if the batch of skins was too firm and needed added suppleness .

I've recently done a couple of sets of cartridge boxes with iron dyes and have achieved some very good results. Next stage is to do a couple of whole sides with a logwood and brazilwood underdye before to see the differences in the depth of colour.



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Postby gregory23b » Thu Apr 05, 2007 2:20 pm

Andrew, do you mean brazil being the later addition or just the logwood (which is), as brazil is widely mentioned across a range of sources in England for dyeing and painting/staining. Also In northern Europe, viz Strasbourg Manuscript and Gottingen model book.

The recipe I mentioned earlier is quite some time prior to 1500 (likely to be over a hundred years), but not English, the wood being recorded as an import to England quite some prior to that.

Bloodwort is also cited as another red dye (fore leather) and of course madder, which I agree is a more common sort.

Given the method of dyeing, ie only brushing on the visible surfaces, not huge amounts are needed, I managed a few books with quite a small volume of wood, granted it was a premium colour, cheap for painting with but less so for staining.

"Essentially all leather dying is going to be the same as fabric dying, you can fix the mordanting into the leather beforehand and afterwards."

To add to that, there are three subtle ways the medievals dyed leather:

1 - making a dye and either soaking the leather or brushing it on, either pre-mordanted or not, ie staining the leather the colour of the dye

2 - making a chemical colour change with the leather itself, eg adding iron to create the tannin/ferrous black.

3 - painted, eg flowers of woad or indigo were painted on with oil, to stop the particles falling off, not seen a recipe for dyeing leather the way cloth is dyed with woad or indigo though, again given the expense it would seem that the flowers are a by-product and therefore a controllable quantity.

Each of those colours the leather but not in precisely the same way, which I found to be quite interesting merely as a detail.


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Postby Neibelungen » Thu Apr 05, 2007 2:54 pm

From what I can find, both logwood (heamatoxylum campechianum) and brazilwood (caesalpinia echinata) are native species to central and south America, and therefore can't have been used before 1492 and probably wasn't common till at least 1550 if not later.

Partly the confusion comes from the terminology as bright reds are often known as 'braise' from which we get the term braisilwood. Most probably they are refering to the Sappanwood tree (caesalpinia sappan) which is a related species but comes from India and Malasia, and was traded through the middleast and laterly the Portugese.

Logwood itself was banned by Parliament in between 1580 and 1640 because it was damaging to the native madder dyers and was felt to be bad for the leather to dye with it. After 1640 the english had logging colonies in Belieze for Logwood.

Madder is not exactly lightfast compared to these two, but given the dates of it's introduction and expense of importation, it's going to be sappanwood before 1500 and then only on expensive luxury items. I'd recomend most medievals to stick to madder unless doing a very late period or can justify it.



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Postby gregory23b » Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:54 pm

"Most probably they are refering to the Sappanwood tree (caesalpinia sappan) which is a related species but comes from India and Malasia, and was traded through the middleast and laterly the Portugese. "

But is called brazil wood nevertheless prior to 1492.
Or verzino, persil, brasile, brasil

Check the middle english dictionary link and tap in brasil/brazil in the proximity search, for a fair few English descriptions of use.

The C Echinata was found to have similar properties as Brazil wood, ie C Sappan, hence it being also called brazil wood. There is an early map of the northern part of Latin america which says 'the land of the brazil {tree}', the C echinata by being called brazil also gave rise to the name of the nation.

IE, the latin american variety is named after the imported eastern one, not the other way round.


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Postby Neibelungen » Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:31 pm

Yep, Your right about brazilwood (eastern) being readily available. It's only the south american species which come to dominate later. It does give a very vivid rich red on leather. Madder doesn't seem to be particularly good, giving quite pale pinks in comparison.

I'd imagine it might well be available on expensive leathers, since alum had to be imported as well, so both are going to be expensive but required materials.

I'm not sure about the earliest date of tin (stannous chloride) mordants though. Seems to be some mention of them from the 17th C but little before.



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Postby Colin Middleton » Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:32 pm

Neibelungen wrote:Essentially all leather dying is going to be the same as fabric dying, you can fix the mordanting into the leather beforehand and afterwards.


Except that you can't boil your leather in the solution like you can with wool and linnen, of the leather goes all crispy.

I thought that we were mining/producing alum somewhere on the East coast by the end of the 15th C. I'm certain that there was something about ships taking urine up the coast and bringing alum back down. Or have O mixed up my minerals there? :?


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Postby Type16 » Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:35 pm

I think it was on the programme "What the Stuarts did for us"..........but can't remember the location.

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Postby deBrownhill » Tue Nov 13, 2007 8:02 pm

Hi,
I was wondering if anyone knows how to cure animal skins so they don't rot.


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