What's wrong with the movie King Arthur?

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shade
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What's wrong with the movie King Arthur?

Postby shade » Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:18 am

non rant factual replies please with sources


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Postby Medicus Matt » Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:08 pm

The 'Saxons' (lead by Cerdic and Cynric who are only recorded as operating in the South of Britain, specifically Wessex and the Isle of Wight about half a century after the action in the film takes place), descend upon Hadrians Wall FROM THE NORTH. Duh!

The arms and armour (all of it, without exception) of Arthur and his knights and all of the 'Romans' (with the exception of Germanus' robes..they're rather lovely) is all wrong. Horrible and wrong. The Saxon stuff is better, not good, just better and the Woad stuff is just laughable.

There's an enormous, posh Roman estate North of Hadrians Wall at a time (the moves set in the early 5th century) when people with money were leaving villas in the south of the country, let alone in an area where the Picts and Scots had been on the rampage for decades.

You can't tattoo (or even make a decent body paint) using real woad.

Picts/Woads...with trebuchets....really?

I'll add more as I think of them, and I promise not to rant (difficult but I will restrain myself).


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Postby Brendan C » Tue Aug 23, 2005 8:55 pm

My knowledge of archery is limited, but I must confess I found it hard to believe that someone using what appears to be a mongolian recurve bow (no providence in any way, shape or form) can shoot someone out of a tree from nearly half a mile away.

I actually burst out laughing at that particular scene



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Postby Crooked Nose » Tue Aug 23, 2005 9:43 pm

I did read somewhere that the record for distance from a bow was a recurve at over 900 yards. I doubt if it was at a target though.


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Postby WorkMonkey » Sat Oct 15, 2005 1:25 pm

Mighty Morphin' Sarmation Knights.

That bit at the end was ghastly, infact within about 5 minutes of it starting I was cringing in my seat. That horrid bit where the rubbish actor playing Lancelot as a boy is going on about "Don't worry, I will return" and his family cheer him off, I just wanted to die. I really did.......

no joke.



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Kingdom of Heaven

Postby craig1459 » Sun Oct 16, 2005 10:54 am

Can we have a similar discussion on Kingdom of Heaven (just seen on DVD)

As it's set in the C12 I swore to the missus that I'd have a coronary if a sallet appeared. I thought thy'd got away with it until Richard I rolls on in th last scene wearing a nice little number. Aaah!


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Postby medievalisboring » Sat Nov 05, 2005 2:06 am

Just keeping in line with the actual topic of conversation, I think there's a reference to a trebuchet-like device (as opposed to an actual onager) in:

E.W. Marsden, Greek and Roman Artillery: Historical Development, Oxford University Press, London 1969

E.W. Marsden, Greek and Roman Artillery: Technical Treatises, Oxford University Press, London 1971

As for recurve bows, the Hamian archers would still have been using them before they left this sunny isle, so the locals may have picked up on how to make them. The 900m record was with a modern laminated bow, the reconstructions of persian bows give a distance of ~360m (D and S Shadrake, Barabrian Warriors, Brassey's History of Uniforms series).

Anyhoo, it was still a pile of a**e, wasn't it? It's one thing to make up an a**e story, it's another thing to claim it as the 'true' story.


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Postby WorkMonkey » Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:37 pm

a**e, a**e, a**e!

This is what happens when you curse in front of children, we take it too far. :(


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Postby medievalisboring » Sat Nov 05, 2005 2:32 pm

touche....


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Postby colonelboris » Mon Nov 07, 2005 6:22 pm

I had a look at the original artwork the costume designers used for the film, as well as some of the armour, at the Corinium museum. It was obvious that they had no real idea of what the dress was at the time. They had all sorts of oriental, medieval and greek bits mixed in with earlier roman armour. They certainly chimped that one up. Haven't seen the film myself, but I heard it was less fun the annual report of the pipe collecting society.


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Postby Jon Das Reich » Wed Nov 09, 2005 3:55 pm

The use of Barbed wire in the film, didnt an American invent the stuff?


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Postby gregory23b » Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:18 pm

JDR - remember Spartacus was an American, so why not later?


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Postby Medicus Matt » Wed Nov 09, 2005 5:05 pm

medievalisboring wrote:Just keeping in line with the actual topic of conversation, I think there's a reference to a trebuchet-like device (as opposed to an actual onager) in:

E.W. Marsden, Greek and Roman Artillery: Historical Development, Oxford University Press, London 1969

E.W. Marsden, Greek and Roman Artillery: Technical Treatises, Oxford University Press, London 1971

.


Just checked threw Marsden and couldn't find a reference but that's not really the point. I don't doubt that the earliest stone throwers were simply long levers with people pulling on one end. However, the devices depicted are exact copies of medieval trebuchets, not something that looks a bit similiar or operates on the same principles.

However, I agree. As I've said many times, the main crime was Bruckheimer trying to pass it off as real, accurate history.


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Postby zauberdachs » Wed Nov 09, 2005 7:34 pm

Medicus Matt wrote:
You can't tattoo (or even make a decent body paint) using real woad.



um... a couple of my friends have woad tatoos. It looks great, a nice dark blue colour and apparently has anti-septic qualities that lend it to tatooing.

I agree, it absolutely sucks as body paint.


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Postby Jon Das Reich » Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:00 pm

gregory23b wrote:JDR - remember Spartacus was an American, so why not later?


Oh how silly of me i forgot that all history comes from over the pond :lol:


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Postby Medicus Matt » Wed Nov 09, 2005 11:36 pm

zauberdachs wrote:


um... a couple of my friends have woad tatoos. It looks great, a nice dark blue colour and apparently has anti-septic qualities that lend it to tatooing.

[/quote]

A natural, indigo based pigment possibly, but actually extracted from woad plants? I remain very sceptical, not just because of what I know about the caustic properties of woad dye (it needs to be very alkaline in order to produce a good, strong, stable dye) but also because of what I've read (http://www.hippy.com/albion/woad.htm and http://www.cyberpict.net/sgathan/essays/woad.htm) and from conversations that I've had with tattoo artists that I've drawn up designs for.
However, if one of your friends could point me in the direction of the artist who did their tats, I'd love to talk to them about what they did to stabilise the dye. Always happy to learn something new. :wink:


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Postby Laffin Jon Terris » Fri Nov 11, 2005 7:24 pm

I picked up a cheap boar skin at Warwick TORM that apparently had been used in a fight scene in Arthur (it was labeled for a stunt costume in a fight involving Guinevere) I got it cheap because it had a large hole for someone to put their head through it!

That doesn't mean the film was any good, just that some good came out of it maybe? :lol:



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Postby colonelboris » Fri Nov 11, 2005 11:49 pm

Ha ha! We saw that one too. If you don't mind, how much was cheap? From the others we've seen, it's cheaper to fly to Prague and buy one in the market there...


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Postby Medicus Matt » Sat Nov 12, 2005 12:35 am

Dunno why you'd want one. Too coarse for sleeping on. On the subject of boars, I've got three boars heads in the freezer if anyone wants one.

Now, reindeer skins from Stockholm airport for £55..they're very warm and comfy! :wink:


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Postby breccamerie » Wed Dec 07, 2005 4:31 pm

Woad...I have used it before as a body paint and my fellow Celts have gone into 'battle' woaded up. We mix the woad with mead to help it stick better, however if not careful the stuff can wipe right off. The boys come home dripping of blue. It does stain. I have my family banner painted of woad and ochre, it rained and ran so I was forced to lacquer it. According to my understanding, woad is actually derived from the fermentation of the leaves. Dung, manure or even sheep urine may be added to produce alkalinity required to create the dye itself. A great deal of leaves are needed to produce even the smallest amount of woad. Is it a good body paint, no it's not the best. Can it work? Yes, if you are very careful not to touch it or sweat. As it's use in tattooing, I have worked for a parlor for several years and must say I have never tried woad. Maybe it's the fear of the urea possibly used in it's production. I have heard urea is sterile....if it's your own! There are many cultures through out the world and history that have used wood ash to produce blue/black tattoos. More readily available and less work, we might consider this an alternative esp. for the Picti's 'tattoos' than needling in woad. Indian ink I believe is what modern day tattoo ink is derived from, or at least can be used for tattooing, is made from wood soot. I actually have a really nice tattoo that was needled in with India drawing ink. Once healed it leaves a lovely blue/black hue. I understand that different types of wood ash produce different colors. Woad may very well work, I have just never tried it. I have some, and I should.


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Postby gregory23b » Wed Dec 07, 2005 5:36 pm

Don't woad dyers get blue hands?

COuld it be that the liquid should be applied to the skin prior to it oxidising? or even mixed with another agent?

Oh welcome Breccia by the way.


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Postby colonelboris » Wed Dec 07, 2005 6:29 pm

I just remeber that documentary about woad and some of the 'agents' used to apply it. This woman kept on and on about the use of 'gentleman's gel' (there may be kids reading this) and they were showing people covered in woad. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that would take an awful lot of 'agent' to cover a whole torso, and if it was all your own, wouldn't you be a little too tired for a big scrap after that?


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Postby guthrie » Wed Dec 07, 2005 7:37 pm

breccamerie wrote: Can it work? Yes, if you are very careful not to touch it or sweat.

No offence intended, but doesnt that kind of rule out using it when your going to be running about and touching things?



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Postby Medicus Matt » Thu Dec 08, 2005 2:33 pm

All of the above would seem to confirm my suspicions that woad makes for a dreadful body paint pigment. Yes it can be used, it's just not very practical and it would seem unlikely that it would have been used when there were better 'body-art' options available.

As there's no historical evidence, either textual or archaeological, to support it's use as either a body paint or tattoo pigment (for example, I don't think that any trace of woad has been found on any of the so-called 'Woad grinders'), one can only assume that those who vehemently insist that it was the colouring agent of choice for their 'Celtic' ancestors are basing it on oft (and still repeated) outdated Victorian concepts and that outstanding historical documentary, 'McBravefart'.

:wink:[/b]


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Postby zauberdachs » Thu Dec 08, 2005 8:16 pm

Over a pint the other night asking where he got it done, where the ink came from etc, one of my "friends" with a woad tatoo admitted he was talking s**t and it was normal dark blue ink, I was naturally most disappointed :(

Laffin Jon Terris wrote:I picked up a cheap boar skin at Warwick TORM that apparently had been used in a fight scene in Arthur (it was labeled for a stunt costume in a fight involving Guinevere) I got it cheap because it had a large hole for someone to put their head through it!

That doesn't mean the film was any good, just that some good came out of it maybe? :lol:


Boar skin ponchos! I have a coyote skin version of this from Arthur :)

I happen to know that the gentlemen from the Clan Ranald Trust bought up almost all the gear from King Arthur and are thinking about starting to put up the odds and ends that they don't need on ebay... perhaps there will be more boar skin ponchos for sale? :)


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Postby Alan_F » Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:26 pm

Breccamarie, is your group re-enactment or SCA?


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Postby Laffin Jon Terris » Sun Dec 18, 2005 3:21 pm

Medicus Matt wrote:Dunno why you'd want one. Too coarse for sleeping on. :


I'm making a quarrel box for my Mrs, based loosely on the one in Embleton's medieval military costume book.

I paid £20 which (considering it had a great big hole behind the head) may not have been a great bargain, but it was what I needed and handy more than anything else!

Reindeer skins Medicus? Do you have those for sale then?

(edited for poor grammar!)



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Postby Medicus Matt » Mon Dec 19, 2005 12:27 am

Laffin Jon Terris wrote:
Reindeer skins Medicus? Do you have those for sale then?



Not yet. All the ones that I've bought back so far are for me and the mine. However, I've a friend who makes regular trips through Stockholm airport, where said skins can be purchased so, if there's an interest, I can ask her if she'd be willing to start bringing them back with her?


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Postby Laffin Jon Terris » Mon Dec 19, 2005 10:04 am

Hmmm,

I'm interested, but not just yet if that's ok.

Will get back to you!

Cheers,

Jon.



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Postby Wim-Jaap » Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:28 pm

what's wrong w t m K A?

Well.. Too much clothing on Keira Knightley.

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